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[Music]

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right tonight uh we got the pleasure to

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welcome back our guest speaker mr ben

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emily jones here

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um i'm sure most of you probably know

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him a little bit about him ben was born

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in aberystwyth uh brought up in the

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lampeter area before moving to oxford

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uh we're up until about i think it was

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about nine years ago now he was working

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as a hospital supporter in john

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radcliffe hospital in oxford and he

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spent 22 well respected years there

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um he became interested in ufos and very

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various other conspiracy theories in the

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1990s the late 1990s and he started his

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website blog and i'll have to read this

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hospital port is against a new world

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order

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in 2006 and it still has thousands of

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visitors every day

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um now he regularly attends and delivers

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talks and discussions all over britain

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on uh a wide range of subjects including

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ufos as you know uh this is actually

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it's ben's fifth visit to us

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yeah um so yeah i was having a look and

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you first addressed this in

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january 2016

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and that was about energy politics and

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ufos

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uh then in

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july 2016 which is just five months

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later he was so popular see he spoke

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about the history of exopolitics

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uh february 2018 he gave us a talk on

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the nottinghamshire roswell

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uh and last year in july 2019 talking

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about seti well i'm sure motivate most

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of you know what set he is and ufos

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now tonight's talk is entitled skeptics

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who are they

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why are they wrong and why does it

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matter

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and that ben's going to be asking some

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switching questions about those who

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challenge those who challenge that makes

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sense

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uh right so all people who look into

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ufos and similar matters will at some

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point come across the skeptics

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um i know remnant and i have uh sort of

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bumped into loads over the years um and

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people who do dismiss them and deny

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everything that's been discovered so

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tonight ben's going to put them under

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examination and if you like okay so not

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going to go on and on so please give a

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warm super welcome to mr bear named in

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germany

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[Applause]

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thank you very much all of you it's

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really really great to be back again

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thank you all of you for coming out

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tonight it's been a long uh

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sort of a

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will wandering in the desert for you

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guys in terms of lockdowns in england

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we've been out a lot to have quite a

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long time for you i think it was a

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couple of days ago wasn't it

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it all ended

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so

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yeah there's still a few rules you've

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got to obey things like that so uh

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this uh this is a kind of like uh

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call this a freedom party

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as well as the swansea ufo network it's

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uh

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so you're making the most of it by

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coming out and enjoying it that's really

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really good it's been a yes i don't know

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just five times i've been here um

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i've lost countless that's really

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amazing i mean the first time i was here

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we were in a we were in a marquee

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and it was windy

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and i did my talk and then

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it was like in a big ten the walls were

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like wobbling and i think with the wind

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it was hilarious

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but uh we we did all right we managed

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all right

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it's it's um tonight i'm gonna talk

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about the skeptic any skeptics here

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tonight

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good

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oh

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steve you don't count don't count

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well you may think well i'm a skeptic

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because i don't believe in certain

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things and um well that technically is

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what a skeptic means but it's a bit more

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complicated than that as i'll explain

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so what is a skeptic i mean everyone as

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you've just explained steve

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has skeptics in our lives if you start

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speaking out about the things you

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believe and i i'm guessing that

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most if not all people in this room have

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some kind of belief in ufos and maybe

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other similar phenomena such as ghosts

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government cover-ups of various kinds

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these things tend to go together the the

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skeptic researcher michael barkin called

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it the cultic milieu

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so i assume most people in here are

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members of the cultic milieu

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and that's a good thing to be i think

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but if you are one of these people then

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um

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somebody who will say you know this this

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stuff you believe in is not true

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it's not real i can i can they'll

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sometimes come up for with uh

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they can be very very uh very sort of

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verbose and eloquent and um come up with

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very persuasive when they're talking to

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you and trying to explain to you why

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what you believe is not true

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and it could this could be um oops hold

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on

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often

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the computer doesn't go off

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um this could be a friend it could be a

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work colleague it could be a member of

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your family it could even be your

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partner

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i know there's people of people like us

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who have skeptic who are married to

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skeptics

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it could be

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be someone you meet on an off chance but

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they're everywhere and when you get

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caught in the corner by these people

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it can it can be a strange experience

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you can it can sometimes feel

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intimidating

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most of them are quite polite you know

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most of them are not um aggressive some

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are and i'll be talking about some of

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those this evening

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most of them you know will just get

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there and they'll get in your face and

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they'll say it's not true it's not true

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this is swamp gas this is a weather

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balloon and here's why and they they

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tend to have very good memories and they

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tend to be able to they tend to have a

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lot of um

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a lot of

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interesting arguments interesting

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information tucked up in their brains to

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to give to you

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and um well it gets more if you can be

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like them and understand them it gets it

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becomes a more interesting conversation

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rather than being bamboozled by them

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so it's worth looking examining the

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skeptics looking at them and seeing what

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makes them tick

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i wouldn't mind becoming a skeptic for a

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day just to see what it's like

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although um i don't know i might i might

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end up enjoying it and not wanting to

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come back

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and you'd lose all faith in me wouldn't

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you

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but so in order to research the

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skeptic side of things i've looked at

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skeptics you know this guy mick west

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he's you've probably come across him

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he's the big ufo skeptic now

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and so i've watched all

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of his material he's a very it's very

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interesting to listen to him actually

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and i've done what so very very few

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people on our on our side of the

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argument very very few people have done

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this i've immersed myself within the

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skeptic community

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to

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examine us

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sometimes i've done this very quietly

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i've gone along to their various

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meetings i've not introduced myself or

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told them who i am

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um

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it's it used to be easier now i'm

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getting a bit more sort of famous so

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they sort of flock around me and want me

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autograph and things like this you know

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but they sometimes recognize me and come

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over and say oh i know you you're not

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don't you're that weird bloke who does

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the hospital portal thing i said yeah

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but um i do sometimes go anonymously to

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their meetings and i talk to them just

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neutrally without telling them who i am

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other times i do people even know who i

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am or i tell them who i am in which case

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i've never had any problems i've never

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had any um

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no one's ever sort of shown me the door

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or made me feel unwelcome at any time

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they've always been very very

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accommodating of me

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so but i've gone to various events you

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can see on the top left there that is

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actually the focus is slightly out but

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you can see um

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that's actually a skeptic conference

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that's actually the um i think that's

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one of the honest the amazing meetings

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they they have they have uh conferences

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just like we do it's strange it's almost

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like a kind of parallel world

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it's it's they have all the things that

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we have they have the equivalent of

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sufan

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which is various local groups that meet

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together usually usually part of the

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skeptics in the pub franchise they have

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big conferences just like um you know

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the uh the ufo conventions and things

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like that it's like tam london there's

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qed con

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there's um

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there's the uh skepticon and

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mostly in the united states just like

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with the ufo

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movement it's mostly americans that do

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this but uh

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qed is actually a british conference you

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can go to

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and

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there's um there's films there's an

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honest liar that's a documentary

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about a famous skeptic and i've watched

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that i actually went to the premiere of

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that they had a big screen premiere here

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in britain i went to watch that

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paranormalities are booked by professor

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richard wiseman

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it's a very interesting thing here

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what's it's called why we see what isn't

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there

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that's in a very uh

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very provocative title anyway i wrote a

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long review of that and

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for a while it was actually on the uh

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it was actually on the google rankings

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above the publisher's own page which

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must have delighted the author

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bad science by ben goldtaker that's

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another one you may have heard ben

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goldtaker he's got a column in the

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guardian in fact all these major

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skeptics seem to have columns in the

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guardian it goes with the territory um

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that's a book about uh what he sees as

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um medical pseudoscience

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he's been very quiet the last couple of

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years for some reason

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the local skeptics groups and there's

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they they're called skeptics in the pub

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most of them although there are some

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that have different names

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but uh a skeptic in the pub group is

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basically a group of skeptics who get

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00:09:36,630 --> 00:09:34,880
together in a pub a bit like what we're

282
00:09:37,829 --> 00:09:36,640
doing now we have some have to drink

283
00:09:39,990 --> 00:09:37,839
very often they invite a speaker

284
00:09:41,670 --> 00:09:40,000
sometimes they just they just exchange

285
00:09:42,949 --> 00:09:41,680
ideas

286
00:09:44,870 --> 00:09:42,959
and um

287
00:09:46,790 --> 00:09:44,880
they these are all organized

288
00:09:49,269 --> 00:09:46,800
independently in local areas people come

289
00:09:51,430 --> 00:09:49,279
up they give a few pounds for donations

290
00:09:53,269 --> 00:09:51,440
and they make friends and they network

291
00:09:54,949 --> 00:09:53,279
and they they it means they can connect

292
00:09:57,269 --> 00:09:54,959
with their fellow skeptics in the local

293
00:10:00,310 --> 00:09:57,279
area again it's a parallel sort of

294
00:10:02,710 --> 00:10:00,320
mirror universe to our own almost

295
00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:02,720
there are over 300 skeptics in a pub in

296
00:10:07,590 --> 00:10:04,240
the country in the world actually

297
00:10:09,190 --> 00:10:07,600
including um i think 150 here in britain

298
00:10:10,870 --> 00:10:09,200
i'm actually a member of oxford skeptics

299
00:10:12,949 --> 00:10:10,880
in the pub i say member i'm just on

300
00:10:15,269 --> 00:10:12,959
their mailing list you know i think so i

301
00:10:17,430 --> 00:10:15,279
go along regularly to their meetings

302
00:10:21,509 --> 00:10:17,440
um

303
00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:21,519
there's there is actually a cardiff

304
00:10:23,910 --> 00:10:22,720
skeptics in the pub and there's one in

305
00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:23,920
aberystwyth

306
00:10:27,110 --> 00:10:25,760
there's not one in swansea for some

307
00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:27,120
reason

308
00:10:30,949 --> 00:10:29,120
yeah i wonder i don't know why there's

309
00:10:32,790 --> 00:10:30,959
not one in swansea because nearly most

310
00:10:34,550 --> 00:10:32,800
major cities actually in in the country

311
00:10:36,470 --> 00:10:34,560
have a skeptics in the pub and there's

312
00:10:37,750 --> 00:10:36,480
there's also plenty in the united states

313
00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:37,760
in um

314
00:10:41,750 --> 00:10:39,760
some in australia

315
00:10:43,829 --> 00:10:41,760
southeast asia has a lot of them there

316
00:10:44,829 --> 00:10:43,839
there's a couple in india

317
00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:44,839
they're common

318
00:10:48,630 --> 00:10:47,360
worldwide and um

319
00:10:50,710 --> 00:10:48,640
honestly if you want to go along to one

320
00:10:52,310 --> 00:10:50,720
of these it's it's worth doing it's an

321
00:10:54,069 --> 00:10:52,320
interesting experience

322
00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:54,079
um i've started going to the ones in

323
00:10:57,829 --> 00:10:55,680
london there's four separate skeptics in

324
00:10:59,509 --> 00:10:57,839
the pub in london i went to i've been

325
00:11:01,190 --> 00:10:59,519
i've been to two of those no three i've

326
00:11:02,470 --> 00:11:01,200
been to three of the four

327
00:11:04,550 --> 00:11:02,480
and um

328
00:11:06,310 --> 00:11:04,560
it's like i said i went along i didn't

329
00:11:07,990 --> 00:11:06,320
introduce myself at first now they sort

330
00:11:10,949 --> 00:11:08,000
of know who i am

331
00:11:12,389 --> 00:11:10,959
because my my notoriety is spread but

332
00:11:13,829 --> 00:11:12,399
they they'll make you welcome they

333
00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:13,839
actually say it actually says on the

334
00:11:18,150 --> 00:11:15,920
skeptics in the pub website it says um

335
00:11:19,829 --> 00:11:18,160
non-skeptics are welcome

336
00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:19,839
if you if you if anyone wants to set up

337
00:11:22,949 --> 00:11:21,600
a skeptics in the pub group i'm not i'm

338
00:11:25,430 --> 00:11:22,959
talking generally now i'm not you guys

339
00:11:27,350 --> 00:11:25,440
here but you could just set one up and

340
00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:27,360
you don't need to join you don't need to

341
00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:28,720
sign any paperwork i don't think there's

342
00:11:32,069 --> 00:11:30,240
any copyright on the franchise you just

343
00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:32,079
say you're a skeptic of the pub and then

344
00:11:35,750 --> 00:11:33,760
you can list yourself on the um on the

345
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:35,760
world network

346
00:11:38,790 --> 00:11:36,959
and um

347
00:11:42,949 --> 00:11:38,800
that's uh that's all there is to it

348
00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:44,790
now the um

349
00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:46,720
i think probably the

350
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:48,560
the greatest accolade the yardstick of

351
00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:50,560
achievement within the skeptic movement

352
00:11:55,269 --> 00:11:52,880
is be to become a skeptic rock star and

353
00:11:57,430 --> 00:11:55,279
they do use the term rock star

354
00:11:58,550 --> 00:11:57,440
that is to become the top skeptic in the

355
00:12:01,829 --> 00:11:58,560
land

356
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:01,839
and to be the the person who is on speed

357
00:12:05,110 --> 00:12:04,000
dial for every journalist whenever they

358
00:12:06,230 --> 00:12:05,120
want

359
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:06,240
to

360
00:12:13,269 --> 00:12:11,519
a haunting a ufo

361
00:12:14,230 --> 00:12:13,279
something else like that you know what

362
00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:14,240
you know those new stories where they

363
00:12:16,949 --> 00:12:15,680
always play the x-files music in the

364
00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:16,959
background

365
00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:19,360
yeah those are usually not very good but

366
00:12:23,509 --> 00:12:21,600
you obviously interview someone one of

367
00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:23,519
us probably um i know that you guys in

368
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:25,120
this group are often in the media do a

369
00:12:29,590 --> 00:12:27,680
lot of a lot of work with journalists

370
00:12:32,470 --> 00:12:29,600
um they'll bring on a skeptic just to

371
00:12:34,310 --> 00:12:32,480
provide balance and um there's several

372
00:12:36,069 --> 00:12:34,320
of these are me i suppose you call them

373
00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:36,079
pop skeptics

374
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:37,360
and probably the biggest one in this

375
00:12:41,269 --> 00:12:38,959
country is at least it used to be until

376
00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:41,279
recently was professor chris french

377
00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:43,120
and here we see him here on the program

378
00:12:46,389 --> 00:12:45,360
this morning debating gary hesseltine

379
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:46,399
it's you can get if you want to watch

380
00:12:50,829 --> 00:12:48,320
this on youtube it's there yeah i think

381
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:50,839
gary gets the better of him but

382
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:54,240
um professor chris french is a uh

383
00:12:58,069 --> 00:12:56,160
he's the head of the anomalistic

384
00:13:00,949 --> 00:12:58,079
psychology department

385
00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:00,959
at goldsmiths college london

386
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:03,920
now um it's um anomalistic psychology

387
00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:05,040
it's an interesting they have these

388
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:08,560
names and um yeah he um he's actually

389
00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:10,480
quite a likable chap he

390
00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:12,240
he's he's one of these skeptics i don't

391
00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:14,240
have a problem with the skeptics for

392
00:13:18,790 --> 00:13:15,839
their beliefs if they're if they behave

393
00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:18,800
themselves in a civilized manner um i

394
00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:20,720
don't mind them at all um there are

395
00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:22,240
those that don't behave in a civilized

396
00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:24,160
manner i'll just talk a little bit about

397
00:13:27,829 --> 00:13:25,760
those

398
00:13:31,269 --> 00:13:27,839
but um

399
00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:31,279
french actually he invented he um

400
00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:32,800
he organized a conference a couple years

401
00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:34,560
ago called seriously suspicious he

402
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:36,720
invited me to speak

403
00:13:41,189 --> 00:13:39,360
and um quite i said yeah sure chris i'll

404
00:13:42,629 --> 00:13:41,199
come along to that and um i did an

405
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:42,639
interesting talk about the the medium

406
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:43,920
helen duncan

407
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:45,760
um and it went it was very it was great

408
00:13:50,629 --> 00:13:48,399
fun everyone had a really good time so

409
00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:50,639
the rock star skepticism

410
00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:52,880
chris french he's there

411
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:54,320
he's the guy you have he used to he's

412
00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:56,240
the guy you used to have on speed dial

413
00:13:59,030 --> 00:13:57,600
if you were a journalist and you wanted

414
00:14:00,790 --> 00:13:59,040
you call them a frenchie come wheel him

415
00:14:02,790 --> 00:14:00,800
into the studio put the skeptic side

416
00:14:03,990 --> 00:14:02,800
across so we have balance on this new

417
00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:04,000
story

418
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:04,959
but

419
00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:06,959
he's now retired

420
00:14:11,269 --> 00:14:08,880
um so but he does have a young

421
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:11,279
apprentice waiting in the wings

422
00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:12,880
and later on this talk i'll tell you who

423
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:15,360
i think that young apprentice is and the

424
00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:16,560
young apprentice is actually a very very

425
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:25,910
so what is a skeptic

426
00:14:29,189 --> 00:14:27,519
now

427
00:14:31,269 --> 00:14:29,199
it's it's actually a more difficult

428
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:31,279
question to answer and you think because

429
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:33,120
i mean i would say a skeptic is that

430
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:35,120
person he's the person

431
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:36,800
who will approach you when you start

432
00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:38,160
talking about your beliefs and say these

433
00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:40,320
things are not real

434
00:14:43,509 --> 00:14:41,920
however

435
00:14:45,829 --> 00:14:43,519
there's a little bit of an anomaly here

436
00:14:48,550 --> 00:14:45,839
for example you may ask yourself

437
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:48,560
well suppose you could say well

438
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:50,079
the skeptic is the guy who questions

439
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:51,600
things the skeptic's a guy who's looked

440
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:52,959
into something and says this is not

441
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:54,720
wrong so this is not real what you

442
00:14:57,910 --> 00:14:56,560
believe in if it's a ufo it's if it's a

443
00:14:59,189 --> 00:14:57,920
ghost or a poltergeist to something it's

444
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:59,199
not real

445
00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:00,480
and they're the person who comes along

446
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:02,720
and pours cold water on anything that's

447
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:06,560
weird and strange and spooky

448
00:15:09,430 --> 00:15:07,600
um

449
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:09,440
now they will deny that though they will

450
00:15:12,949 --> 00:15:10,720
deny that

451
00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:12,959
now what the i think the best place to

452
00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:14,480
start is to read a description of

453
00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:17,519
themselves what they call themselves

454
00:15:19,990 --> 00:15:18,399
um

455
00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:20,000
now this is something i lifted from the

456
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:22,480
oxford skeptics in the pub webpage

457
00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:24,959
a skeptic is one who rigorously

458
00:15:29,670 --> 00:15:27,360
rigorously and opens openly applies the

459
00:15:31,749 --> 00:15:29,680
methods of science and reason to all

460
00:15:34,389 --> 00:15:31,759
empirical claims can you all hear me all

461
00:15:36,629 --> 00:15:34,399
right yeah you can okay

462
00:15:39,590 --> 00:15:36,639
a skeptic provisionally proportions

463
00:15:41,509 --> 00:15:39,600
acceptance of any claim to valid logic

464
00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:41,519
and a fair and thorough assessment of

465
00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:43,519
available evidence and studies the

466
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:45,440
pitfalls of human reason and the

467
00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:47,440
mechanisms of deception

468
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:49,680
so as to avoid being deceived by others

469
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:51,600
or themselves

470
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:54,240
that is uh that is there the definitions

471
00:15:57,590 --> 00:15:55,839
their own definition of themselves a

472
00:15:58,949 --> 00:15:57,600
skeptic but i'm going to argue tonight

473
00:16:01,430 --> 00:15:58,959
ladies and gentlemen this is not a

474
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:01,440
definition of what a skeptic is

475
00:16:06,629 --> 00:16:03,920
this is a slogan

476
00:16:10,629 --> 00:16:06,639
this is a projection this is a

477
00:16:12,710 --> 00:16:10,639
facade it's a persona that the skeptics

478
00:16:16,069 --> 00:16:12,720
believe that they are

479
00:16:17,829 --> 00:16:16,079
but then they are actually not

480
00:16:20,230 --> 00:16:17,839
but mostly i know the weird thing is

481
00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:20,240
that most of them don't realize this

482
00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:21,199
most of them actually don't even

483
00:16:24,389 --> 00:16:22,639
understand themselves

484
00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:24,399
and sometimes you might think that's a

485
00:16:27,749 --> 00:16:25,759
bit arrogant to me i've never been a

486
00:16:29,430 --> 00:16:27,759
skeptic i might become one one day you

487
00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:29,440
know you never know i mean

488
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:31,360
if you've always got to leave the

489
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:33,440
possibility open that one day

490
00:16:36,310 --> 00:16:34,480
you know something will come along and

491
00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:36,320
it will change my mind i might have a

492
00:16:40,389 --> 00:16:38,160
sudden change in mind internally which

493
00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:40,399
will turn me into a skeptic but um it's

494
00:16:43,829 --> 00:16:42,399
unlikely actually because i have looked

495
00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:43,839
at both sides of this

496
00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:45,360
the people the people who tend to become

497
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:52,230
but um

498
00:16:59,189 --> 00:16:58,150
i would i define skeptic as the one one

499
00:17:03,269 --> 00:16:59,199
who

500
00:17:05,029 --> 00:17:03,279
believes that everything outside

501
00:17:07,829 --> 00:17:05,039
normal reality

502
00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:07,839
within the known systems

503
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:10,720
of the universe is not real someone who

504
00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:12,480
believes that and promotes that idea i

505
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:14,720
think that's a more accurate description

506
00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:17,280
of what a skeptic is

507
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:20,160
um to give you an example

508
00:17:25,029 --> 00:17:21,839
supposing

509
00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:25,039
someone came to you

510
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:26,799
or someone approached somebody saying

511
00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:28,559
i've got i've seen a ufo i've got a

512
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:30,000
photograph of it and they show you the

513
00:17:33,669 --> 00:17:31,760
photo

514
00:17:35,110 --> 00:17:33,679
right there there are two skeptics there

515
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:35,120
who look at it one of them looks at it

516
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:36,960
and says oh that's interesting

517
00:17:40,310 --> 00:17:38,240
tell me more

518
00:17:41,909 --> 00:17:40,320
and they interview the witness

519
00:17:43,990 --> 00:17:41,919
they go to the location where this

520
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:44,000
happened they phone around and looked

521
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:45,840
and they they call all the local areas

522
00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:46,880
to see if there are any balloons

523
00:17:50,549 --> 00:17:48,640
launched and things like that any

524
00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:50,559
stranger drone festivals or anything

525
00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:51,600
like that

526
00:17:54,789 --> 00:17:53,360
um and then they come back to the

527
00:17:55,990 --> 00:17:54,799
witness and they say

528
00:17:57,669 --> 00:17:56,000
that i've looked into this i'm sorry

529
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:57,679
this is not a ufo this is a weather

530
00:18:02,470 --> 00:18:00,000
balloon swamp gas stroke drone whatever

531
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:02,480
okay and then the second skeptics

532
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:04,640
the second skeptic the witness goes up

533
00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:05,760
shows in the photograph the second

534
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:08,080
skeptic goes that's not real it's i'm

535
00:18:12,390 --> 00:18:09,600
not even going to look at it or examine

536
00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:12,400
it it's not real it's not a ufo

537
00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:14,960
now of those two skeptics the latter one

538
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:16,400
is considered the best and biggest

539
00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:17,840
skeptic

540
00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:19,440
the one who says i'm not even gonna look

541
00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:22,240
at it it's not real

542
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:24,400
so that doesn't fit in with that

543
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:26,080
definition does it because i mean i

544
00:18:29,669 --> 00:18:27,760
don't actually disagree with anything

545
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:29,679
within that within that slogan i really

546
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:31,840
don't

547
00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:33,039
now

548
00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:35,280
if you're ever in these i'm going to

549
00:18:38,230 --> 00:18:36,400
i'll give you a little bit of a few

550
00:18:41,669 --> 00:18:38,240
instructions about what you may be able

551
00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:41,679
to do if you're ever if you ever ah

552
00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:44,000
trapped one of these people and um you

553
00:18:48,630 --> 00:18:46,640
wanna and they're saying things to you

554
00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:48,640
and you about what you believe and you

555
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:50,720
want to defend yourself or

556
00:18:56,950 --> 00:18:53,840
successfully rebut their rebuttal

557
00:18:58,710 --> 00:18:56,960
because they do they use a few tricks

558
00:19:00,630 --> 00:18:58,720
there's a few um

559
00:19:02,789 --> 00:19:00,640
i would say uh

560
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:02,799
rhetorical tactics that they use

561
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:05,440
to it which in a sense bamboozles you

562
00:19:10,630 --> 00:19:07,600
it's essentially they can it's it's a

563
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:10,640
kind of sophistry they use um i'm going

564
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:12,000
to go through a couple of those now now

565
00:19:16,870 --> 00:19:14,640
one of those is this one raising the bar

566
00:19:18,390 --> 00:19:16,880
demand evidence from your opponent for

567
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:18,400
everything he says and when he delivers

568
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:19,919
demand more and when he delivers more

569
00:19:23,669 --> 00:19:21,600
demand even more remember your thirst

570
00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:23,679
for evidence must be unquenchable

571
00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:25,039
give you a good example or a

572
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:27,440
hypothetical example a guy's walking his

573
00:19:32,470 --> 00:19:29,200
dog in the wood late at night

574
00:19:34,390 --> 00:19:32,480
outside a military base

575
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:34,400
a triangular object descends into the

576
00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:35,760
forest

577
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:38,240
it leaves marks on the ground little

578
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:40,160
aliens come out and start dancing around

579
00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:42,720
it the guy runs home

580
00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:45,200
tells tells the newspapers tells tells

581
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:47,919
everyone calls the police calls everyone

582
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:49,520
and um

583
00:19:53,669 --> 00:19:51,360
eventually ends up in the news

584
00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:53,679
now what would a skeptic say the skeptic

585
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:54,960
would say i don't believe you there's

586
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:56,400
not enough evidence for this we just got

587
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:58,240
your word for it

588
00:20:01,190 --> 00:20:00,000
there's no uh there's there was no alert

589
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:01,200
at the base

590
00:20:06,789 --> 00:20:04,960
come out and examine the

591
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:06,799
location none of none of the security

592
00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:08,320
police saw it

593
00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:10,000
the the deputy base commander didn't

594
00:20:12,789 --> 00:20:11,360
come out into the forest he didn't make

595
00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:12,799
any kind of recording on his dick to

596
00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:14,720
phone

597
00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:16,640
so uh if if that happened i would

598
00:20:22,390 --> 00:20:18,799
believe you but until then i'm afraid

599
00:20:24,789 --> 00:20:22,400
there's just not enough evidence

600
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:24,799
what have i just described

601
00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:26,640
you know i just yeah you know i've just

602
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:28,240
i've described the renducian forest

603
00:20:30,310 --> 00:20:29,600
incident

604
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:30,320
so

605
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:33,440
the in a sense the skeptic has set a

606
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:35,760
is set a finish line which you can cross

607
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:37,760
supposing in that statement because they

608
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:39,360
do say things like that which once

609
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:40,960
you've crossed it they can say well if

610
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:42,640
that happened i'd believe you

611
00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:45,679
but when you fulfill that

612
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:47,039
when you fulfill that criteria when you

613
00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:48,559
cross that finish line when you tick

614
00:20:51,990 --> 00:20:49,919
those boxes

615
00:20:54,630 --> 00:20:52,000
on the form what do they say okay i

616
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:54,640
believe you now but they don't do they

617
00:20:59,110 --> 00:20:56,559
they say no no no hang on no it could

618
00:21:00,870 --> 00:20:59,120
have been a lighthouse

619
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:00,880
it could have been it could have been a

620
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:03,280
truckload of burning manure

621
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,559
that's

622
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:06,640
what a pile of manure that is

623
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:08,400
oh it could have been a joyriding ice

624
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:10,559
cream van

625
00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:13,200
that's got to be my favorite

626
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:15,600
so it could be all those things so i'm

627
00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:17,039
afraid it's not a ufo you know that i

628
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:18,240
think i think this is what it was

629
00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:19,360
instead

630
00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:21,520
so that's that is uh that's raising the

631
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:22,720
bar

632
00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:25,360
soccer with the occam

633
00:21:28,549 --> 00:21:27,120
occam's razor all things being equal

634
00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:28,559
most the most likely explanation is

635
00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:30,400
usually the right one

636
00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:31,919
now uh you may have heard this quoted on

637
00:21:34,950 --> 00:21:33,760
the film contact it's an interest that's

638
00:21:36,630 --> 00:21:34,960
an interesting film which i discussed

639
00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:36,640
the last time i was here

640
00:21:40,149 --> 00:21:38,480
but um occam's razor is a problem

641
00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:40,159
solving exercise which work it's

642
00:21:43,669 --> 00:21:41,520
actually a very good problem-solving

643
00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:43,679
exercise for known systems so for

644
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:45,679
example if your radio if your portable

645
00:21:48,310 --> 00:21:47,360
radio breaks down

646
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:48,320
um

647
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:50,159
before you open it and stick screwdriver

648
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:52,080
in and start fiddling with it

649
00:21:55,830 --> 00:21:54,240
try changing the batteries first

650
00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:55,840
because the flat batteries are probably

651
00:21:58,870 --> 00:21:57,360
the most likely

652
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:58,880
problem which will cause a radio to

653
00:22:01,909 --> 00:22:00,720
malfunction once you've done that if it

654
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:01,919
doesn't work then you can stick your

655
00:22:04,630 --> 00:22:03,280
screwdriver in and start fiddling with

656
00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:04,640
it but until then you'll go for the most

657
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:06,480
likely explanation first

658
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:08,799
now what they'll say the problem is you

659
00:22:13,990 --> 00:22:10,720
can't apply that to unknown systems for

660
00:22:17,430 --> 00:22:14,000
example um you could for example if you

661
00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:17,440
could say well which is more likely

662
00:22:20,789 --> 00:22:19,120
regarding um

663
00:22:22,789 --> 00:22:20,799
regarding rendezvous for us coming back

664
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:22,799
to this metaphor again

665
00:22:28,149 --> 00:22:25,120
you know was it a lighthouse

666
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:28,159
or was it aliens from the planet zog

667
00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:30,720
which is more likely

668
00:22:34,710 --> 00:22:32,159
you know and you could say well you know

669
00:22:36,870 --> 00:22:34,720
well i don't the answer to that would be

670
00:22:38,549 --> 00:22:36,880
well i don't actually know how often

671
00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:38,559
aliens from the planet zog actually land

672
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:40,640
and interact with people i don't know

673
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,159
which is it more likely that it was

674
00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:44,320
aliens from the planet zog landing or

675
00:22:49,110 --> 00:22:47,039
was it more likely that a group of

676
00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:49,120
highly trained us air force security

677
00:22:52,630 --> 00:22:50,480
police

678
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:52,640
saw a light flashing through the trees

679
00:22:56,310 --> 00:22:54,880
coming from a well-known local landmark

680
00:22:58,149 --> 00:22:56,320
i thought it was a triangular object

681
00:22:59,110 --> 00:22:58,159
with aliens floating around it

682
00:23:00,310 --> 00:22:59,120
so it's a good thing when you get

683
00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:00,320
anywhere so whenever you're challenged

684
00:23:04,149 --> 00:23:02,240
with occam's razor always turn it back

685
00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:04,159
on them and say well okay

686
00:23:06,789 --> 00:23:05,440
you you're dealing with an unknown

687
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:06,799
system and you're trying to assign a

688
00:23:11,909 --> 00:23:08,640
hierarchy of likelihoods within that

689
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:11,919
unknown system and you can't do that

690
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:13,440
you can't do you can only do it with

691
00:23:17,110 --> 00:23:14,880
known systems where we know the

692
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:17,120
likelihood of different outcomes as an

693
00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:23,190
extraordinary claims

694
00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:27,600
require extraordinary explanations

695
00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:29,200
now uh whenever you s this is

696
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:31,679
interesting thing firstly um if any if a

697
00:23:35,669 --> 00:23:33,760
skeptic ever says this to you right can

698
00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:35,679
you do us a favor right just for my

699
00:23:39,430 --> 00:23:37,840
amusement if for no other reason reply

700
00:23:41,029 --> 00:23:39,440
to them oh that's interesting that's a

701
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:41,039
good phrase i'll remember that oh i

702
00:23:45,029 --> 00:23:42,720
thought of another it's good to be

703
00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:45,039
open-minded but not so open-minded that

704
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:47,200
your brain falls out

705
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:48,960
yeah the reason is that both of these

706
00:23:53,269 --> 00:23:51,200
are skeptic cliches and skeptics use

707
00:23:55,750 --> 00:23:53,279
them all the time they have um

708
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:55,760
they they like old jokes now neil

709
00:23:59,830 --> 00:23:58,240
degrasse tyson who was the um he's the

710
00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:59,840
current presenter of the cosmos series

711
00:24:02,549 --> 00:24:01,679
after carl sagan died he did the second

712
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:02,559
series

713
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:04,480
um he was at a skeptic conference and he

714
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:06,320
he made that statement it's good to be

715
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:07,919
open-minded but not so open-minded your

716
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:09,760
brain falls out and the audience still

717
00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:11,279
laughed

718
00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:12,960
unbelievable

719
00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:14,080
i wish they

720
00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:15,520
if i tell a joke more than two or three

721
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,510
but if you're a skeptic and you tell the

722
00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:23,760
joke over and over again

723
00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:24,640
people

724
00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:28,720
sorry all right

725
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:30,080
i hope you'll have time for questions at

726
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:36,149
now the thing is this this has been

727
00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:37,679
attributed to carl sagan the guy who

728
00:24:42,630 --> 00:24:40,880
presented who uh presented um

729
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:42,640
cosmos he was also a big proponent of

730
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:44,799
seti as you knew if he was here if you

731
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:46,960
hear from my last appearance

732
00:24:50,950 --> 00:24:49,520
and um he uh

733
00:24:52,070 --> 00:24:50,960
he coined this phrase extraordinary

734
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:52,080
claims require extraordinary

735
00:24:54,390 --> 00:24:53,279
explanations

736
00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:54,400
well um

737
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:55,679
there's a problem with this particular

738
00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:57,039
statement one is that it's simply a

739
00:25:00,870 --> 00:24:58,880
qualitative emotional kind of reaction

740
00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:00,880
to something so for example

741
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,600
um you present a claim okay you can send

742
00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:05,760
a claim an extraordinary claim well

743
00:25:09,669 --> 00:25:07,760
what kind of how do you apply a quantity

744
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:09,679
to that in other words could you could

745
00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:12,080
you create a scale and say this has this

746
00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:14,480
has five extraordinary points this claim

747
00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:16,000
so then you need an explanation with

748
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:17,679
more than five extraordinary points

749
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:18,799
there's got to be five or above

750
00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:20,640
extraordinary points

751
00:25:23,269 --> 00:25:21,840
and you get a tape version there's a

752
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:23,279
technique that's ten five extraordinary

753
00:25:26,549 --> 00:25:25,120
points ten extraordinary points hold a

754
00:25:27,909 --> 00:25:26,559
tape measure up to it weigh it on a

755
00:25:30,149 --> 00:25:27,919
scale which gives you how many

756
00:25:31,269 --> 00:25:30,159
extraordinary points it has

757
00:25:32,470 --> 00:25:31,279
it's

758
00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:32,480
you can't do that because the word

759
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:34,000
extraordinary doesn't apply to any kind

760
00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:35,200
of quantity

761
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:37,600
it's simply a statement of your

762
00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:39,360
extraordinary essentially is how people

763
00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:41,360
react subjectively to

764
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:42,720
to a phenomenon

765
00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:44,000
and there's no way to measure that

766
00:25:48,310 --> 00:25:45,760
because only you know how extraordinary

767
00:25:49,510 --> 00:25:48,320
something you find something no one else

768
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:49,520
so

769
00:25:57,029 --> 00:25:55,039
what i think uh evidence should be

770
00:25:58,710 --> 00:25:57,039
adequate to explain the claim

771
00:25:59,990 --> 00:25:58,720
and if it does then that's as far as i'm

772
00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:00,000
concerned the claim has been proved

773
00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:01,360
saying just saying it's extraordinary

774
00:26:07,029 --> 00:26:03,440
doesn't doesn't really add or subtract

775
00:26:11,430 --> 00:26:08,830
the santa claus

776
00:26:13,269 --> 00:26:11,440
gambit maybe skeptics can't rule out the

777
00:26:15,029 --> 00:26:13,279
existence of the loch ness monster but

778
00:26:17,029 --> 00:26:15,039
we can't rule out the existence of santa

779
00:26:19,669 --> 00:26:17,039
claus either does that mean that santa

780
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:19,679
claus is there for real now this is a

781
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:21,520
slight adaptation on a more general

782
00:26:24,789 --> 00:26:22,799
point which is this the burden of

783
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:24,799
evidence the skeptics are not making the

784
00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:27,760
claims the onus the onus

785
00:26:31,029 --> 00:26:29,760
is on the believer to provide evidence

786
00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:31,039
that their claim is true not on the

787
00:26:34,789 --> 00:26:32,640
skeptic for proving that it is not the

788
00:26:37,269 --> 00:26:34,799
onus the onus that's a width i never

789
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:37,279
heard the word onus

790
00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:39,120
and until i heard it from a skeptic in

791
00:26:42,549 --> 00:26:40,480
this particular statement i've never

792
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:42,559
heard it since from anyone else

793
00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:44,240
it's it's owner seems to be one of these

794
00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:46,240
words that the skeptics love

795
00:26:49,909 --> 00:26:48,400
and it's one of the little um that's

796
00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:49,919
what's one of their habit words they do

797
00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:51,520
have a few habit words onus is one of

798
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:53,440
them another is caveat

799
00:26:57,029 --> 00:26:55,360
skeptics love the word caveat if you

800
00:26:58,310 --> 00:26:57,039
listen to them for like more than half

801
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:58,320
an hour actually guaranteed they will

802
00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:00,960
say the word caveat at some point

803
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:03,520
but this is actually a misrepresentation

804
00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:04,960
of us what i think what they're trying

805
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:06,799
to say is that people who are not

806
00:27:10,789 --> 00:27:08,480
skeptics

807
00:27:12,149 --> 00:27:10,799
use this fallacy they say well i was

808
00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:12,159
walking along the shores of loch ness

809
00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:13,760
and i saw a monster

810
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:15,120
and therefore it's real because you

811
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:17,279
can't prove i didn't i don't i've never

812
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:19,039
met a serious nessie researcher or

813
00:27:23,269 --> 00:27:21,600
ufologist a ghost hunter or anyone else

814
00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:23,279
who actually believes that who actually

815
00:27:26,230 --> 00:27:24,880
believes that they just have to say

816
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:26,240
something and they weren't supposed to

817
00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:27,600
believe them because it can't be

818
00:27:31,830 --> 00:27:29,360
falsified

819
00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:31,840
i've never ever suggested i've never

820
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:33,760
ever suggested that's the case myself i

821
00:27:37,750 --> 00:27:35,679
don't know any serious researcher who

822
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:37,760
thinks that that's the case either so if

823
00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:40,000
a skeptic is if a skeptic is kind of is

824
00:27:45,029 --> 00:27:43,039
using this in a sense to

825
00:27:46,310 --> 00:27:45,039
as a description of most people who are

826
00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:46,320
not skeptics then it's a false

827
00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:48,320
description and they do this a lot they

828
00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:51,679
tend to straw man us quite a bit

829
00:27:55,110 --> 00:27:53,200
casting doubt

830
00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:55,120
911 truth has got it wrong about page

831
00:27:58,389 --> 00:27:56,640
jewish jet because they forgot to take

832
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:58,399
into account that it crossed into

833
00:28:01,990 --> 00:27:59,919
different into a different time zone so

834
00:28:03,909 --> 00:28:02,000
let's talk about that for a while the

835
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:03,919
pain stewardship referred it refers to

836
00:28:06,389 --> 00:28:05,200
the golfer pain steward who had a

837
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:06,399
private jet

838
00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:08,880
uh this jet uh actually lost its cabin

839
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:10,960
pressure and everyone onboard suffocated

840
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:12,159
while it was in the air including the

841
00:28:15,269 --> 00:28:13,200
pilot

842
00:28:17,669 --> 00:28:15,279
and um it took a while for the it

843
00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:17,679
apparently took two hours for the

844
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:20,480
the air defenses to find them when uh

845
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:22,080
people often say well actually you know

846
00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:23,360
why didn't why did it take why did it

847
00:28:28,789 --> 00:28:25,600
take that long for 911 but it apparently

848
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:28,799
took um much it took a much shorter time

849
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:30,960
in this case than it did for 9 11. but

850
00:28:34,789 --> 00:28:32,880
the point is that

851
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:34,799
this was actually a mistake

852
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:37,279
the response time was the same for both

853
00:28:43,669 --> 00:28:40,640
this jet and for the 911 incident yet

854
00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:43,679
the skeptics um

855
00:28:46,789 --> 00:28:44,960
point out that this is something that

856
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:46,799
researchers got wrong so that means all

857
00:28:50,789 --> 00:28:48,159
the other scholarship related to the

858
00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:50,799
subject of 9 11 and and why the official

859
00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:51,760
story

860
00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:53,840
should be questioned is therefore thrown

861
00:28:57,350 --> 00:28:55,360
out the window

862
00:28:59,110 --> 00:28:57,360
because they made one mistake that's

863
00:29:01,110 --> 00:28:59,120
classical casting down now this is the

864
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:01,120
ultimate in casting down the sneer this

865
00:29:05,830 --> 00:29:03,600
is an extension of casting doubt to the

866
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:05,840
levels of absurdity

867
00:29:09,909 --> 00:29:07,440
anyone who believes we've been visited

868
00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:09,919
by extraterrestrial aliens must be a

869
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:13,360
lunatic a fool or a con man

870
00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:15,039
if you believe that if you believe this

871
00:29:19,350 --> 00:29:17,440
you must be a maniac a simpleton or a

872
00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:19,360
fraud

873
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:21,360
now this i told not all skeptics are

874
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:22,880
civilized and some will say things like

875
00:29:25,669 --> 00:29:23,919
this but

876
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:25,679
leaving aside the insulting nature of

877
00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:27,120
what they're saying

878
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:29,520
but what

879
00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:30,640
what does this tell us about the

880
00:29:40,389 --> 00:29:36,630
it tells us nothing

881
00:29:42,389 --> 00:29:40,399
it's this is worthless as an axiom in

882
00:29:44,470 --> 00:29:42,399
every single way

883
00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:44,480
it's i could just i could i could adapt

884
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:46,240
it and say everyone who thinks two plus

885
00:29:50,389 --> 00:29:48,159
two is f everyone who thinks two plus

886
00:29:52,389 --> 00:29:50,399
two equals four is a maniac

887
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:52,399
a lunatic and a fool or simpleton and a

888
00:29:56,630 --> 00:29:53,440
fraud

889
00:29:57,669 --> 00:29:56,640
does that mean two plus two equals five

890
00:29:59,110 --> 00:29:57,679
no

891
00:30:01,269 --> 00:29:59,120
but they will say this this is called an

892
00:30:02,870 --> 00:30:01,279
ad hominem attack it's also uh poisoning

893
00:30:05,029 --> 00:30:02,880
the well fallacy

894
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:05,039
i think the ultimate the ultimate

895
00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:06,960
expression of this going back to 911

896
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:10,080
again the ultimate expression is i think

897
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:12,960
is an example which richard which um

898
00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:14,799
which a lot of people a lot of people

899
00:30:17,590 --> 00:30:16,240
when when people question the official

900
00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:17,600
story of 9 11

901
00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:20,320
you'll often get this they'll say

902
00:30:24,149 --> 00:30:22,320
you think the jews were phoned up the

903
00:30:25,669 --> 00:30:24,159
night before and told to stay off work

904
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:25,679
don't you

905
00:30:29,430 --> 00:30:27,840
and richard dawkins who's i'll talk a

906
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:29,440
bit more about him in a minute now he

907
00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:31,360
was um he's like a famous atheist

908
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:33,520
skeptic he did a program called enemies

909
00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:35,760
of reason and he addresses cons he

910
00:30:39,750 --> 00:30:38,080
dresses the conspiracy angle only once

911
00:30:42,149 --> 00:30:39,760
in the entire series and he brings up

912
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:42,159
this point he said you may think that

913
00:30:45,669 --> 00:30:44,000
conspiracy theories are harmless but

914
00:30:47,830 --> 00:30:45,679
what about all the people who say the

915
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:47,840
jews were phoned up the day before 9 11

916
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:50,960
told to stay off work

917
00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:52,480
that's that's the only reference he

918
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:54,640
makes that entire subject

919
00:30:59,269 --> 00:30:57,200
as it happens um over 300 jews died on 9

920
00:31:01,990 --> 00:30:59,279
11 including six israelis and i don't

921
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:02,000
know anyone who seriously doubts that

922
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:03,279
it's a bit unlikely isn't it can you

923
00:31:11,590 --> 00:31:09,190
hello ishmael is that you yeah who is

924
00:31:13,029 --> 00:31:11,600
this it doesn't matter listen someone's

925
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:13,039
gonna go down don't go into work

926
00:31:17,669 --> 00:31:14,480
tomorrow who it doesn't matter just

927
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:19,990
no it's it's they say this because they

928
00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:21,200
want to

929
00:31:25,669 --> 00:31:24,240
it is an attack against our character

930
00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:25,679
that's what it is they want to stay they

931
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:27,360
want us to be wrong

932
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:29,360
but they can't prove us wrong so they

933
00:31:33,669 --> 00:31:31,679
say well you're a bad person therefore i

934
00:31:35,269 --> 00:31:33,679
don't have to prove you wrong

935
00:31:37,029 --> 00:31:35,279
it's a very nasty thing and they do this

936
00:31:38,470 --> 00:31:37,039
a lot this i they in the longer version

937
00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:38,480
of this talk i go into more details

938
00:31:42,549 --> 00:31:40,559
about the skeptic thug element

939
00:31:43,990 --> 00:31:42,559
which does exist and i've been i've been

940
00:31:46,549 --> 00:31:44,000
the target of them myself i had to call

941
00:31:48,230 --> 00:31:46,559
the police at one point

942
00:31:51,190 --> 00:31:48,240
coincidence theory it's just a

943
00:31:53,430 --> 00:31:51,200
coincidence you know who's had this one

944
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:53,440
it's just a coincidence

945
00:31:56,470 --> 00:31:54,880
i'm surprised i'm surprised no one's had

946
00:31:58,789 --> 00:31:56,480
this one from a skeptic it's a very very

947
00:32:00,470 --> 00:31:58,799
common method you say something

948
00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:00,480
like that and they'll say

949
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:02,880
oh it's just a coincidence right well

950
00:32:06,070 --> 00:32:04,640
this is this is a important point the

951
00:32:07,350 --> 00:32:06,080
problem with the coincidence when they

952
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:07,360
say it's just a coincidence that's kind

953
00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:09,440
of a get out of jail free card

954
00:32:12,789 --> 00:32:11,039
it's kind it's it's actually

955
00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:12,799
intellectually lazy and dishonest for

956
00:32:17,509 --> 00:32:15,519
them to say that because you see

957
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:17,519
there is nothing physically possible in

958
00:32:23,669 --> 00:32:20,559
this universe which is so unlikely

959
00:32:25,029 --> 00:32:23,679
that you could say that can never happen

960
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:25,039
it could just cannot happen because it's

961
00:32:28,230 --> 00:32:26,720
too unlikely you never it could happen

962
00:32:29,590 --> 00:32:28,240
and they take this the skeptics take

963
00:32:31,110 --> 00:32:29,600
this ball and they run with it to the

964
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:31,120
point where they say they come up with

965
00:32:34,310 --> 00:32:32,720
all kinds of um

966
00:32:35,909 --> 00:32:34,320
ways of making up to something which is

967
00:32:37,669 --> 00:32:35,919
highly unlikely to be coincidental is a

968
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:37,679
coincidence

969
00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:38,720
um

970
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:41,840
there's all kinds of this

971
00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:43,120
when it comes to synchronicity for

972
00:32:46,549 --> 00:32:44,880
example people who have synchronistic

973
00:32:47,509 --> 00:32:46,559
experiences like you'll just think

974
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:47,519
you're thinking about someone you

975
00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:48,880
haven't seen for years and years and

976
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:50,720
years and suddenly you meet them the

977
00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:51,840
very next moment they sort of come

978
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:54,960
around the corner have you had that

979
00:32:58,630 --> 00:32:56,480
oh it's very common synchronicity is

980
00:33:00,470 --> 00:32:58,640
very common i get a lot of that um

981
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:00,480
professor gary schwartz was doing a talk

982
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:02,080
the other day about it which i listened

983
00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:04,000
to it's very interesting

984
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:05,760
the problem is you see i got into a

985
00:33:10,230 --> 00:33:07,840
debate with a guy called dr paul rogers

986
00:33:11,830 --> 00:33:10,240
about this when i was at a conference in

987
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:11,840
in bath

988
00:33:19,269 --> 00:33:17,590
and i said to him

989
00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:19,279
okay if someone comes up to you if

990
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:20,240
someone

991
00:33:25,909 --> 00:33:24,240
lottery five weeks in a row would you

992
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:25,919
accept that as coincidence he said no of

993
00:33:28,549 --> 00:33:27,120
course not i said why not it's

994
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:28,559
physically possible

995
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:29,600
why not

996
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:31,919
it's incredibly unlikely i mean the odds

997
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:34,080
are 13 million to one raised to the

998
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:36,240
power of five that's such a huge number

999
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:38,399
it's impossible to imagine it's that

1000
00:33:41,909 --> 00:33:40,320
unlikely but if you buy a ticket five

1001
00:33:44,389 --> 00:33:41,919
weeks in a row it's physically possible

1002
00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:44,399
for you to win five weeks in a row

1003
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:46,080
and he said no that's not possible it's

1004
00:33:48,310 --> 00:33:47,519
not possible that could happen i said

1005
00:33:50,549 --> 00:33:48,320
right

1006
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:50,559
where is the statistical ceiling then

1007
00:33:54,389 --> 00:33:51,760
for you

1008
00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:54,399
above which you will stop using

1009
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:56,320
that trump card you will stop saying

1010
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:57,600
things are coincidence where is it where

1011
00:34:02,710 --> 00:34:00,559
is the cutoff point between what you in

1012
00:34:04,149 --> 00:34:02,720
in terms of the hierarchy of likelihood

1013
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:04,159
in which you

1014
00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:06,000
will will say it is a coincidence it

1015
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:07,360
could be a coincidence if it's below

1016
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:09,040
that but it could be a coincidence if

1017
00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:10,800
it's above that and he couldn't answer

1018
00:34:14,950 --> 00:34:13,040
me because the skeptics have never

1019
00:34:16,869 --> 00:34:14,960
actually had any kind of conference and

1020
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:16,879
agreed on it and they say they mumble

1021
00:34:19,909 --> 00:34:18,399
things about p values and bayesian

1022
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:19,919
inference and things like that but they

1023
00:34:23,510 --> 00:34:22,079
cannot answer that simple question until

1024
00:34:25,349 --> 00:34:23,520
they can answer that simple question

1025
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:25,359
they cannot use this

1026
00:34:30,710 --> 00:34:29,040
not as a successful rebuttal

1027
00:34:32,710 --> 00:34:30,720
because you know it's it's because it

1028
00:34:34,869 --> 00:34:32,720
can be used so

1029
00:34:36,629 --> 00:34:34,879
so randomly and and so gratuitously in

1030
00:34:38,470 --> 00:34:36,639
that way

1031
00:34:40,710 --> 00:34:38,480
so and he did see i think hopefully i

1032
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:40,720
gave him something to think about there

1033
00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:42,399
but if you if you do win i mean

1034
00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:43,520
obviously i think if someone won the

1035
00:34:47,909 --> 00:34:46,480
lottery five weeks in a row um

1036
00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:47,919
you'd be you'd probably be arrested and

1037
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:50,240
questioned wouldn't you because

1038
00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:52,399
and um you'd you could you could go to

1039
00:34:55,510 --> 00:34:53,760
court obviously you could afford a very

1040
00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:55,520
good lawyer so you could don't get out

1041
00:34:59,589 --> 00:34:58,240
of it quite easily

1042
00:35:01,270 --> 00:34:59,599
but you could you could go to court and

1043
00:35:02,470 --> 00:35:01,280
you could just stand up and say you know

1044
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:02,480
when it comes to the defense you could

1045
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:03,920
stand up and say your honor i'm just a

1046
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:06,400
very lucky guy and sit down again and

1047
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:08,480
they'd have to acquit you

1048
00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:11,760
if there's no evidence you've been

1049
00:35:17,349 --> 00:35:13,280
tampering with vlan slots in it's

1050
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:17,359
awaiting the balls or anything you know

1051
00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:19,040
rational explanations i'm sure there's a

1052
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:21,200
rational explanation for this now this

1053
00:35:23,510 --> 00:35:22,560
isn't really a criticism but this is

1054
00:35:24,470 --> 00:35:23,520
just like

1055
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:24,480
um

1056
00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:26,240
now it's not just skeptics who use this

1057
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:28,160
steve mara has a habit of using this

1058
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:30,160
phrase and i do mention to it sometimes

1059
00:35:33,349 --> 00:35:31,920
i've interviewed him a few times and

1060
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:33,359
i've said steve look can i be very

1061
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:36,160
pedantic about and i take him up on this

1062
00:35:38,790 --> 00:35:36,960
now

1063
00:35:39,990 --> 00:35:38,800
the thing about this what do they mean

1064
00:35:41,829 --> 00:35:40,000
when they say there's a rational

1065
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:41,839
explanation

1066
00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:43,760
because uh irrational i don't believe

1067
00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:46,000
the word the adjective rational cannot

1068
00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:47,200
be

1069
00:35:50,950 --> 00:35:49,200
used to apply to an explanation it can't

1070
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:50,960
be used to apply to a conclusion only to

1071
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:52,960
a method

1072
00:35:57,430 --> 00:35:54,640
so

1073
00:35:59,910 --> 00:35:57,440
it's like you could say well i examined

1074
00:36:02,150 --> 00:35:59,920
this particular case rationally and i

1075
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:02,160
concluded that it is really aliens these

1076
00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:04,560
ufos really are aliens therefore

1077
00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:06,480
i've i've used rationality and i've come

1078
00:36:10,310 --> 00:36:08,640
to an irrational conclusion

1079
00:36:12,390 --> 00:36:10,320
you know alternatively you could be a

1080
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:12,400
skeptic and you could be the skeptic who

1081
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:14,640
i said earlier who takes who someone

1082
00:36:17,510 --> 00:36:16,480
hands him a photo any kids

1083
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:17,520
i'm not going to look at this because

1084
00:36:21,589 --> 00:36:19,440
it's not real

1085
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:21,599
that skeptic therefore has come has been

1086
00:36:26,230 --> 00:36:23,760
totally irrational and come to a

1087
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:26,240
rational explanation

1088
00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:28,000
so you see what i mean the word rational

1089
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:35,510
maybe the clown had a day off

1090
00:36:38,550 --> 00:36:37,440
now this is a the clown's day off

1091
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:38,560
fallacy

1092
00:36:41,990 --> 00:36:40,480
is the

1093
00:36:43,430 --> 00:36:42,000
the most extreme example of what i was

1094
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:43,440
saying earlier about the burden of

1095
00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:44,800
evidence

1096
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:46,720
and skeptics will will do this so

1097
00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:48,800
supposing you're walking along

1098
00:36:52,069 --> 00:36:50,480
the shores of loch ness you see the loch

1099
00:36:54,069 --> 00:36:52,079
ness monster you tell a skeptic and the

1100
00:36:56,230 --> 00:36:54,079
skeptic will say no you didn't see the

1101
00:36:57,910 --> 00:36:56,240
loch ness monster all that happened was

1102
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:57,920
a clown had a day off from the circus

1103
00:37:01,109 --> 00:36:59,680
and decided to play a trick on you he

1104
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:01,119
dressed up as a monster unifor he

1105
00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:03,200
dressed up in a monster costume and went

1106
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:04,880
swimming in the lake to see if anyone

1107
00:37:08,630 --> 00:37:07,440
would think it was a loch ness monster

1108
00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:08,640
and

1109
00:37:11,910 --> 00:37:10,560
i would you would say the answer to that

1110
00:37:13,589 --> 00:37:11,920
is well how do you know which clown

1111
00:37:15,430 --> 00:37:13,599
where is he did you could you produce

1112
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:15,440
him can you give me his phone number

1113
00:37:18,230 --> 00:37:16,640
and the skeptic will say i don't know

1114
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:18,240
what clown it is

1115
00:37:20,710 --> 00:37:19,200
it's just

1116
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:20,720
it's more likely that it was some clown

1117
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:22,720
with a day off from the circus

1118
00:37:25,349 --> 00:37:24,000
and um

1119
00:37:26,870 --> 00:37:25,359
you suddenly realize at that point this

1120
00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:26,880
is kind of a variation of the occam's

1121
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:29,440
razor fallacy because you you realize at

1122
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:31,520
that point the skeptic

1123
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:36,069
debunking becomes a feat of the

1124
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:38,000
imagination

1125
00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:39,680
all you have to do if someone presents

1126
00:37:43,589 --> 00:37:42,160
you a claim which is outside the skeptic

1127
00:37:45,349 --> 00:37:43,599
milieu

1128
00:37:47,829 --> 00:37:45,359
all you have to do if you're a skeptic

1129
00:37:49,589 --> 00:37:47,839
is think of something that it might be

1130
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:49,599
physically possible regardless of how

1131
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:51,520
unlikely it is

1132
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,200
and it wins by default because it

1133
00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:55,440
doesn't involve ufos or monsters now i

1134
00:37:58,150 --> 00:37:56,720
never understood why something should

1135
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:58,160
win by default just because it doesn't

1136
00:38:02,870 --> 00:37:59,839
use involved ufos and monsters but

1137
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:02,880
that's what i think they it's um

1138
00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:04,640
according to some kind of principle

1139
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:06,400
which i don't quite understand if you

1140
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:07,440
can think of something that doesn't

1141
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:10,160
involve ufos or monsters or ghosts then

1142
00:38:13,750 --> 00:38:12,320
you've you've won the arguments just

1143
00:38:14,950 --> 00:38:13,760
because

1144
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:14,960
and um

1145
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:16,560
and therefore you you just it doesn't

1146
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:17,680
matter how unlikely it is it doesn't

1147
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:19,280
matter if it is literally just something

1148
00:38:23,589 --> 00:38:22,000
you thought of off the top of your head

1149
00:38:27,109 --> 00:38:23,599
so the clown's day off fallacy is used

1150
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:27,119
very very commonly among skeptics

1151
00:38:30,790 --> 00:38:28,880
now

1152
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,800
the big one what motor one thing that

1153
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:32,480
motivates them i think is when it comes

1154
00:38:36,470 --> 00:38:34,000
to this question are we alone in the

1155
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:36,480
universe now the answer to this question

1156
00:38:38,950 --> 00:38:37,680
i think is no

1157
00:38:41,190 --> 00:38:38,960
i think most people in this room

1158
00:38:43,030 --> 00:38:41,200
probably agree with me if not all of you

1159
00:38:45,190 --> 00:38:43,040
but um

1160
00:38:48,550 --> 00:38:45,200
the skeptic will go will say something

1161
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:48,560
like this this is why i think there's um

1162
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:50,400
i think there's an emotional element to

1163
00:38:54,069 --> 00:38:51,680
this

1164
00:38:55,589 --> 00:38:54,079
they will say well

1165
00:38:57,109 --> 00:38:55,599
some people think that we're there are

1166
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:57,119
aliens out there and that we're not

1167
00:39:01,270 --> 00:38:59,760
alone in the universe but you know

1168
00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:01,280
i think they're just doing it because

1169
00:39:04,710 --> 00:39:03,280
they want that comfort they don't like

1170
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:04,720
the idea it's uncomfortable to think

1171
00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:06,800
we're just this tiny little pale blue

1172
00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:08,720
dot that carl sagan calls you know no

1173
00:39:12,470 --> 00:39:09,920
one wants to believe we're just this

1174
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:12,480
tiny little oasis of life in this

1175
00:39:17,430 --> 00:39:15,200
infinite cosmic desert of nothingness

1176
00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:17,440
and you know some people they they make

1177
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:19,040
up these stories because well it gives

1178
00:39:23,430 --> 00:39:20,800
them comfort so they don't have to face

1179
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:23,440
the reality that's what they say

1180
00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:25,680
but of course the proviso is and the the

1181
00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:28,880
immediate follow on from that is but i

1182
00:39:33,750 --> 00:39:30,880
don't need to do that

1183
00:39:35,589 --> 00:39:33,760
i can face this harsh reality i'm strong

1184
00:39:38,069 --> 00:39:35,599
enough and mean enough and superior

1185
00:39:40,150 --> 00:39:38,079
enough that i could live my life knowing

1186
00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:40,160
that i live on the only living planet in

1187
00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:42,400
the universe i don't need any kind of

1188
00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:44,960
cotton wool rap fantasy to get me out of

1189
00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:46,960
my bed every morning

1190
00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:50,880
therefore i'm very superior to you

1191
00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:53,200
and um that i think means so when the

1192
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:55,040
skeptics say it's wishful thinking that

1193
00:39:58,230 --> 00:39:56,640
we're not alone in the universe i think

1194
00:39:59,750 --> 00:39:58,240
that cuts both ways

1195
00:40:01,670 --> 00:39:59,760
you could say like you could answer that

1196
00:40:03,270 --> 00:40:01,680
it is wishful thinking that

1197
00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:03,280
if you believe we're not alone in the we

1198
00:40:06,550 --> 00:40:04,800
are alone in the universe that's also

1199
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:06,560
wishful thinking

1200
00:40:09,589 --> 00:40:07,920
because for the reasons i've just

1201
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:09,599
described it gives it gives you a sense

1202
00:40:13,190 --> 00:40:11,440
of superiority you can back slap with

1203
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:13,200
other people and say look at us

1204
00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:14,560
we can face the truth and these other

1205
00:40:19,030 --> 00:40:17,680
people can't we're way above them

1206
00:40:20,630 --> 00:40:19,040
which of course is why they need people

1207
00:40:23,109 --> 00:40:20,640
like us

1208
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:23,119
see because from their point of view

1209
00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:25,040
if it wasn't people like us who they who

1210
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:31,030
it's all academic anyway because we're

1211
00:40:36,069 --> 00:40:33,040
not alone in the universe i believe

1212
00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:36,079
and that's a rational explanation

1213
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:38,000
so where does skeptics start where do

1214
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:39,359
skeptics come from now when we think of

1215
00:40:41,750 --> 00:40:40,720
skeptics we think of them as something

1216
00:40:43,190 --> 00:40:41,760
modern

1217
00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:43,200
we think of it something that post

1218
00:40:46,870 --> 00:40:44,800
enlightenment you know when people

1219
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:46,880
discovered science

1220
00:40:50,470 --> 00:40:48,800
and um they started investigating things

1221
00:40:53,030 --> 00:40:50,480
rationally rather than just believing in

1222
00:40:54,470 --> 00:40:53,040
the church and things like that um

1223
00:40:57,510 --> 00:40:54,480
everyone says well that's kind of where

1224
00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:57,520
skepticism started because um skeptics

1225
00:41:01,910 --> 00:40:59,839
rose with the arrival of science and

1226
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:01,920
reason but in fact

1227
00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:04,480
skeptic skepticism is which what we

1228
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:06,640
would recognize as the skeptic

1229
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:08,880
movement began much earlier it goes back

1230
00:41:12,870 --> 00:41:10,720
all the way through history

1231
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:12,880
and i think the earliest example of this

1232
00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:14,640
can be found in ancient india probably

1233
00:41:18,829 --> 00:41:16,079
the first

1234
00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:18,839
there was the

1235
00:41:22,870 --> 00:41:21,440
chavakas now this was an indian set

1236
00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:22,880
which interestingly even though they

1237
00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:24,319
were skeptics

1238
00:41:27,109 --> 00:41:25,920
they were considered part of hinduism

1239
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:27,119
and they still are even though they were

1240
00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:29,440
kind of neocharvaking movements today

1241
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:30,560
and um

1242
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:31,920
they believe if you listen to what they

1243
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:34,160
say it's it's incredible it's exactly

1244
00:41:37,510 --> 00:41:36,240
what skeptics say today they say there

1245
00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:37,520
is nothing that could not be perceived

1246
00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:39,200
rational there is no soul there is no

1247
00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:41,760
afterlife there are no gods

1248
00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:43,760
human beings are matter

1249
00:41:46,950 --> 00:41:45,599
consciousness is consciousness comes

1250
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:46,960
from the brain all kinds of things like

1251
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:48,640
that very often i think i think they

1252
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,760
often thought that it came from the

1253
00:41:53,829 --> 00:41:51,520
liver rather than the brain where they

1254
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:53,839
did believe that um it was a product of

1255
00:41:57,829 --> 00:41:56,079
for the workings of the body

1256
00:42:00,630 --> 00:41:57,839
so very similar to what the richard

1257
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:00,640
dawkins is and and chris francis say of

1258
00:42:03,349 --> 00:42:02,000
this world today and this is very i say

1259
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:03,359
this is very very old this tradition

1260
00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:04,880
goes back a long way

1261
00:42:08,790 --> 00:42:07,280
it's a very funny story actually um

1262
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:08,800
of a chap who um

1263
00:42:12,710 --> 00:42:10,640
he was actually a skeptic and he joined

1264
00:42:15,510 --> 00:42:12,720
the british humanist association

1265
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:15,520
and became an atheist and a skeptic and

1266
00:42:18,150 --> 00:42:16,880
he was very worried because his parent

1267
00:42:19,589 --> 00:42:18,160
he was from a hindu family and his

1268
00:42:20,710 --> 00:42:19,599
parents were very devout used to go to

1269
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:20,720
the temple and everything like that and

1270
00:42:24,470 --> 00:42:22,960
worship the gods on diwali and things

1271
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:24,480
like that and then

1272
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:27,359
he wondered how they would cope with him

1273
00:42:32,309 --> 00:42:29,680
you know their son becoming an atheist

1274
00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:32,319
and a skeptic and a materialist

1275
00:42:35,190 --> 00:42:33,760
and eventually he plugged he plucked up

1276
00:42:36,309 --> 00:42:35,200
courage and he went and told them he

1277
00:42:37,349 --> 00:42:36,319
says

1278
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:37,359
i've joined the british human

1279
00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:38,480
association i'm a skeptic i don't

1280
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:39,520
believe in any of this sort of thing i'm

1281
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:42,160
very very sorry and his parents went

1282
00:42:46,390 --> 00:42:44,480
may the gods be praised our son has

1283
00:42:49,430 --> 00:42:46,400
discovered the sacred hindu tradition of

1284
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:49,440
the charvakas and they were overjoyed

1285
00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:50,640
so

1286
00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:55,430
but

1287
00:42:59,670 --> 00:42:57,760
i think um this is this guy here i think

1288
00:43:01,510 --> 00:42:59,680
is uh where where the modern skeptic

1289
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:01,520
movement i think it begins in terms of

1290
00:43:04,790 --> 00:43:03,040
the bond and practices probably begins

1291
00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:04,800
with this guy here he was um

1292
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:06,560
he was a skeptic who's very into bondage

1293
00:43:09,030 --> 00:43:08,160
and things like that and s m as you can

1294
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:09,040
see

1295
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:13,200
escapologist this is harry houdini

1296
00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:14,720
now he's a very interesting figure

1297
00:43:18,390 --> 00:43:16,000
indeed because

1298
00:43:19,670 --> 00:43:18,400
he i think is the first person

1299
00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:19,680
who

1300
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:22,000
i think

1301
00:43:25,270 --> 00:43:23,359
had the kind of attitude that modern

1302
00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:25,280
skeptics have towards the paranormal in

1303
00:43:28,950 --> 00:43:27,680
which they essentially challenge us in

1304
00:43:30,309 --> 00:43:28,960
in this particular way that modern

1305
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:30,319
skeptics do

1306
00:43:33,349 --> 00:43:32,000
they keep they come in your face and say

1307
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:33,359
this is not true this is not true this

1308
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:34,960
is not true

1309
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:36,960
he he was famous for his tricks he used

1310
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:38,880
to escape from things as you can see

1311
00:43:41,829 --> 00:43:40,560
he's locked up in chains now but he

1312
00:43:43,109 --> 00:43:41,839
could break out of these chains he could

1313
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:43,119
pick locks with his bare teeth and

1314
00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:45,599
things like that amazing chat

1315
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:47,040
they locked him in a milk churn and

1316
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:48,640
filled it with water once and he managed

1317
00:43:54,150 --> 00:43:51,040
to get out of it

1318
00:43:58,069 --> 00:43:55,829
he's no one ever realized the secrets of

1319
00:43:59,430 --> 00:43:58,079
his tricks

1320
00:44:00,790 --> 00:43:59,440
but somebody used to they locked him in

1321
00:44:02,470 --> 00:44:00,800
bank vaults

1322
00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:02,480
inside the body of a dead whale once it

1323
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:03,680
was amazing

1324
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:06,640
and he became world famous now um

1325
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:08,480
he died interesting he died

1326
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:11,280
on halloween night in 1926

1327
00:44:14,710 --> 00:44:13,359
after a short illness because someone

1328
00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:14,720
punched him in the stomach in a fight

1329
00:44:19,990 --> 00:44:18,000
and he got uh he got a ruptured appendix

1330
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:20,000
but long before then he said to his wife

1331
00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:22,160
bess and to his mother he said then

1332
00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:23,920
you know um

1333
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:25,359
these these um

1334
00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:27,520
these these mediums these psychics

1335
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:28,640
they're all fake you know they're all

1336
00:44:31,190 --> 00:44:29,760
fake

1337
00:44:32,550 --> 00:44:31,200
and he got very angry because when his

1338
00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:32,560
mother died in particular he was

1339
00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:34,400
extremely upset because

1340
00:44:39,349 --> 00:44:36,880
mediums would he saw mediums

1341
00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:39,359
at spiritual churches and seances

1342
00:44:42,550 --> 00:44:41,200
pretend what as he saw pretending to

1343
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:42,560
channel the spirits of the dead to

1344
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:44,400
grieving relatives and things like that

1345
00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:45,839
making money off it and things like this

1346
00:44:50,550 --> 00:44:47,760
and he hated that sort of thing and so

1347
00:44:52,230 --> 00:44:50,560
he went on a crusade to try and um put a

1348
00:44:55,829 --> 00:44:52,240
stop

1349
00:44:57,109 --> 00:44:55,839
cash prize

1350
00:44:58,470 --> 00:44:57,119
for anyone who could prove

1351
00:45:01,030 --> 00:44:58,480
scientifically

1352
00:45:02,550 --> 00:45:01,040
that they could do what they claim to do

1353
00:45:03,670 --> 00:45:02,560
um brother can someone give me a time

1354
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:03,680
call when i've gone three quarters of an

1355
00:45:08,150 --> 00:45:05,760
hour so how am i doing

1356
00:45:09,589 --> 00:45:08,160
right you are he he he offered a cash

1357
00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:09,599
prize to anyone who could do it no one

1358
00:45:12,390 --> 00:45:10,800
ever claimed it now there's another

1359
00:45:14,069 --> 00:45:12,400
skeptic a more recent one who actually

1360
00:45:16,390 --> 00:45:14,079
did the same thing i'll talk about him

1361
00:45:17,750 --> 00:45:16,400
yeah i'll talk about him later

1362
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:17,760
but um he

1363
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:20,480
houdini was open-minded enough

1364
00:45:24,470 --> 00:45:22,720
to examine the possibility that

1365
00:45:25,829 --> 00:45:24,480
there might actually be an afterlife and

1366
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:25,839
it may be possible once you're in that

1367
00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:28,400
afternoon to communicate with us with

1368
00:45:31,589 --> 00:45:29,440
your living

1369
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:31,599
the living people you leave behind

1370
00:45:34,390 --> 00:45:33,200
so what he did was he left a coded

1371
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:34,400
message

1372
00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:36,160
with his wife bess he wrote it in a

1373
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:37,920
piece of letter only only the two of

1374
00:45:40,950 --> 00:45:39,359
them knew about it he locked it in they

1375
00:45:42,550 --> 00:45:40,960
locked it in a safe no one else ever saw

1376
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:42,560
it but it was a it was a letter with

1377
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:44,400
coded information in it

1378
00:45:48,150 --> 00:45:46,160
so and then he encouraged her to go to

1379
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:48,160
see all the mediums she could and he

1380
00:45:53,829 --> 00:45:51,280
says best if if i die before you do

1381
00:45:55,990 --> 00:45:53,839
i'll come back and i will um i'll give

1382
00:45:58,230 --> 00:45:56,000
you this coded message if it's really me

1383
00:45:59,670 --> 00:45:58,240
so you'll know that it's true and as it

1384
00:46:01,270 --> 00:45:59,680
happens he died very suddenly i mean he

1385
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:01,280
died he was not very old he died very

1386
00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:03,520
suddenly but best indeed did do that now

1387
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:05,520
according to official stories today

1388
00:46:09,670 --> 00:46:07,680
you'll find out that um

1389
00:46:12,069 --> 00:46:09,680
bess actually never got the coded

1390
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:12,079
message from harry after his death

1391
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:14,400
however um the the today the harry

1392
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:16,720
houdini fan club they still hold

1393
00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:19,119
an annual seance every year at the

1394
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:21,440
knickerbocker hotel in new york city say

1395
00:46:24,870 --> 00:46:22,880
harry come back harry come back and

1396
00:46:26,309 --> 00:46:24,880
harry apparently never come back

1397
00:46:28,150 --> 00:46:26,319
but

1398
00:46:29,829 --> 00:46:28,160
what's something very interesting and

1399
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:29,839
this is this comes into other subjects

1400
00:46:33,270 --> 00:46:31,760
about how information is suppressed

1401
00:46:35,030 --> 00:46:33,280
because i got given a present it was a

1402
00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:35,040
book on on the it was the reader's

1403
00:46:40,790 --> 00:46:38,560
digest encyclopedia of the paranormal

1404
00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:40,800
1983

1405
00:46:45,190 --> 00:46:43,680
very old out of print obviously someone

1406
00:46:46,230 --> 00:46:45,200
one of the porters of my hospital found

1407
00:46:48,790 --> 00:46:46,240
it on the league of friends store and

1408
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:48,800
bought it for me it was very nice of him

1409
00:46:51,670 --> 00:46:49,920
i had a look through it and there was a

1410
00:46:53,109 --> 00:46:51,680
page here on houdini

1411
00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:53,119
and i read i read through and it led me

1412
00:46:56,309 --> 00:46:54,560
to write an article called the houdini

1413
00:46:58,069 --> 00:46:56,319
code which you could find on my on my

1414
00:46:59,670 --> 00:46:58,079
panma blog today

1415
00:47:01,750 --> 00:46:59,680
because in this article it claims that

1416
00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:01,760
bess actually did get a coded message

1417
00:47:05,589 --> 00:47:03,520
from harry houdini

1418
00:47:08,069 --> 00:47:05,599
on one of the seances that he came

1419
00:47:11,349 --> 00:47:08,079
through with the actual code that she

1420
00:47:12,150 --> 00:47:11,359
had arranged with him and she reported

1421
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:12,160
it

1422
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:14,480
but that now is not repeated in any

1423
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:16,000
modern literature you have to go back to

1424
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:19,440
a book from from 40 years ago

1425
00:47:22,549 --> 00:47:21,280
to just to get information so it was

1426
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:22,559
worth looking at the older books if you

1427
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:23,520
come across an older book on the

1428
00:47:28,790 --> 00:47:25,520
paranormal ufology or something always

1429
00:47:33,109 --> 00:47:31,510
there are several organizations i'll

1430
00:47:35,510 --> 00:47:33,119
have a break after this one steve all

1431
00:47:37,510 --> 00:47:35,520
right there are several organizations

1432
00:47:39,670 --> 00:47:37,520
connected to um

1433
00:47:41,109 --> 00:47:39,680
to skepticism now

1434
00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:41,119
of course we have organizations too

1435
00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:43,040
there's euphoria there's suffon of

1436
00:47:46,549 --> 00:47:45,040
course there's many many others

1437
00:47:49,270 --> 00:47:46,559
but the skeptics have their equivalent

1438
00:47:50,630 --> 00:47:49,280
as i'm explaining in terms of um

1439
00:47:52,150 --> 00:47:50,640
intellectual groups and things like that

1440
00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:52,160
and this is the biggest it's called it's

1441
00:47:54,549 --> 00:47:53,280
called the committee for skeptical

1442
00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:54,559
inquiry but used to be called the

1443
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:55,680
committee

1444
00:47:59,109 --> 00:47:57,359
for the scientific investigation of

1445
00:48:01,430 --> 00:47:59,119
claims of the paranormal

1446
00:48:03,750 --> 00:48:01,440
a cycop and everyone thinks that's kind

1447
00:48:06,549 --> 00:48:03,760
of a joke psy cop

1448
00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:06,559
the policeman of psychical research

1449
00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:08,559
um apparently it wasn't intentional

1450
00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:10,480
according to their founder paul kurtz it

1451
00:48:14,309 --> 00:48:12,240
was found it was founded by a guy it was

1452
00:48:15,589 --> 00:48:14,319
founded in 1975 by a man called paul

1453
00:48:17,430 --> 00:48:15,599
kurtz who

1454
00:48:19,589 --> 00:48:17,440
is a rather shady character and in the

1455
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:19,599
longer version of this talk i um i'll go

1456
00:48:23,510 --> 00:48:21,920
into i go into more details about that

1457
00:48:24,870 --> 00:48:23,520
but all the figure all the major

1458
00:48:26,950 --> 00:48:24,880
skeptical figures including those i'm

1459
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:26,960
going to talk about in the second half

1460
00:48:30,950 --> 00:48:28,319
are members of

1461
00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:30,960
some way associated with this group

1462
00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:32,960
um it holds an annual conference it

1463
00:48:37,030 --> 00:48:35,280
publishes um a magazine called the

1464
00:48:38,950 --> 00:48:37,040
skeptical inquirer

1465
00:48:41,349 --> 00:48:38,960
um there's many it does many many other

1466
00:48:43,030 --> 00:48:41,359
things it organizes uh investigations

1467
00:48:44,549 --> 00:48:43,040
and things like that and it's it's

1468
00:48:45,910 --> 00:48:44,559
interesting to look into it and listen

1469
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:45,920
look what they say

1470
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:48,960
and i've been investigating an awful lot

1471
00:48:51,910 --> 00:48:51,040
and the people associated with it

1472
00:48:53,349 --> 00:48:51,920
there's a

1473
00:48:54,549 --> 00:48:53,359
a quite an interesting array of

1474
00:48:56,150 --> 00:48:54,559
characters i must say they're very

1475
00:48:57,990 --> 00:48:56,160
different in many many different ways

1476
00:49:08,150 --> 00:48:58,000
all united though

1477
00:49:14,470 --> 00:49:11,109
now the skeptical inquirer is a magazine

1478
00:49:17,109 --> 00:49:14,480
which is published by by the csi

1479
00:49:19,030 --> 00:49:17,119
i think it's yeah i was just thinking um

1480
00:49:20,710 --> 00:49:19,040
she must get my magazines mixed up here

1481
00:49:22,870 --> 00:49:20,720
and there's one called the skeptic which

1482
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:22,880
i think is michael sherman's magazine

1483
00:49:27,270 --> 00:49:25,040
but this is the uh site this is the csi

1484
00:49:29,670 --> 00:49:27,280
magazine the reason interestingly cycop

1485
00:49:32,069 --> 00:49:29,680
changed its name to csi

1486
00:49:34,069 --> 00:49:32,079
because of a lawsuit by uri geller who

1487
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:34,079
i'm sure you're familiar with as there's

1488
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:36,160
a long complicated story about that it's

1489
00:49:40,309 --> 00:49:38,480
it's a rivalry that goes back about 50

1490
00:49:41,510 --> 00:49:40,319
years i don't have time to go into it

1491
00:49:42,950 --> 00:49:41,520
now

1492
00:49:45,190 --> 00:49:42,960
but um

1493
00:49:47,430 --> 00:49:45,200
this is the equivalent of like nexus or

1494
00:49:49,829 --> 00:49:47,440
ufo truth magazine or ufo data all these

1495
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:49,839
other magazines that come out

1496
00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:51,760
on our side of the debate

1497
00:49:56,069 --> 00:49:53,760
and it they discuss a lot of the very

1498
00:49:57,750 --> 00:49:56,079
similar subjects that these two i've got

1499
00:49:59,510 --> 00:49:57,760
some copies of nexus with me actually i

1500
00:50:01,750 --> 00:49:59,520
was reading them on the train

1501
00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:01,760
and um i've read skeptical inquirer i've

1502
00:50:04,630 --> 00:50:03,119
actually um

1503
00:50:06,390 --> 00:50:04,640
the uk skeptic magazine i actually

1504
00:50:08,710 --> 00:50:06,400
subscribed to them for a year that was

1505
00:50:10,630 --> 00:50:08,720
edited by professor chris french who i

1506
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:10,640
talked about before it's now edited by

1507
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:12,720
deborah hyde who's another skeptic

1508
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:13,920
so um

1509
00:50:17,030 --> 00:50:15,359
as you can see they're discussing the

1510
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:17,040
face on mars

1511
00:50:19,589 --> 00:50:18,400
according to the skepticists of course

1512
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:19,599
it's just a

1513
00:50:22,630 --> 00:50:20,720
a random

1514
00:50:24,870 --> 00:50:22,640
randomly shaped lump of rock a lot with

1515
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:24,880
all the other things surrounding it but

1516
00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:26,880
obviously you see it's this is what i

1517
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:28,559
mean about it being a parallel world you

1518
00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:30,480
can read these magazines you can even

1519
00:50:34,230 --> 00:50:32,400
recognize you can recognize the subject

1520
00:50:36,069 --> 00:50:34,240
certainly you can even recognize some of

1521
00:50:38,069 --> 00:50:36,079
the stylistic elements to to the

1522
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:38,079
magazine but it's approaching it from

1523
00:50:42,309 --> 00:50:39,920
another angle it's like it's like being

1524
00:50:43,589 --> 00:50:42,319
alice going through the looking glass

1525
00:50:45,750 --> 00:50:43,599
there's several of these magazines in

1526
00:50:48,069 --> 00:50:45,760
the uk like skeptic uk skeptic magazine

1527
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:48,079
you know several others

1528
00:50:52,309 --> 00:50:50,160
and um

1529
00:50:54,069 --> 00:50:52,319
pardon me that's just a coincidence i'm

1530
00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:54,079
sure

1531
00:50:56,549 --> 00:50:55,200
now i'm going to talk about some of the

1532
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:56,559
individuals

1533
00:51:00,150 --> 00:50:58,319
who make up the skeptic movement wide

1534
00:51:01,829 --> 00:51:00,160
for a variety a modelly crew of

1535
00:51:03,430 --> 00:51:01,839
characters of various

1536
00:51:06,069 --> 00:51:03,440
shades various characters various

1537
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:06,079
abilities various levels of honesty

1538
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:07,520
intelligence

1539
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:09,119
and you've got to start with this guy

1540
00:51:13,510 --> 00:51:10,960
this is the great grandfather and

1541
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:13,520
godfather of modern skeptics it is james

1542
00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:16,480
randy and his real name randall james

1543
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:18,880
hamilton's wing

1544
00:51:24,470 --> 00:51:22,720
born in 1928 about 18 months after harry

1545
00:51:25,589 --> 00:51:24,480
houdini died

1546
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:25,599
now

1547
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:28,720
i i'm interested in reincarnation so i

1548
00:51:32,470 --> 00:51:30,480
can't out wondering when i listen to

1549
00:51:34,710 --> 00:51:32,480
this guy listen to what he says

1550
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:34,720
whether harry got to the spirit world

1551
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:36,960
and thought i want to have another go i

1552
00:51:39,829 --> 00:51:38,720
want to come back and try again as

1553
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:39,839
somebody else

1554
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:41,680
and so he came back as this guy james

1555
00:51:45,270 --> 00:51:43,520
randy and there's he actually passed

1556
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:45,280
away a few months ago and i did a

1557
00:51:49,510 --> 00:51:48,160
special program about it on my show

1558
00:51:50,790 --> 00:51:49,520
and i did a couple of interviews about

1559
00:51:54,230 --> 00:51:50,800
it because it really was an end of an

1560
00:51:56,309 --> 00:51:54,240
era actually when when james randy died

1561
00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:56,319
randy um was

1562
00:51:59,990 --> 00:51:58,319
he was one of these people i mean people

1563
00:52:02,630 --> 00:52:00,000
say he's

1564
00:52:04,710 --> 00:52:02,640
painted his own life in a slightly rosy

1565
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:04,720
colored hue

1566
00:52:08,710 --> 00:52:06,400
and indeed he has been caught out

1567
00:52:10,390 --> 00:52:08,720
telling a few porkies now and again

1568
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:10,400
but he he's one of these he said he was

1569
00:52:12,790 --> 00:52:11,839
one of these kids who was too bright for

1570
00:52:14,470 --> 00:52:12,800
school

1571
00:52:16,309 --> 00:52:14,480
so he used to he was too intelligent to

1572
00:52:17,589 --> 00:52:16,319
go to school so he used to bunk off

1573
00:52:20,470 --> 00:52:17,599
school and used to go to down to

1574
00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:20,480
downtown toronto canada where he lived

1575
00:52:23,109 --> 00:52:22,000
he used to go into theaters and watch

1576
00:52:25,349 --> 00:52:23,119
the great

1577
00:52:26,870 --> 00:52:25,359
magicians perform

1578
00:52:28,230 --> 00:52:26,880
and he wanted to do that he wants he

1579
00:52:30,790 --> 00:52:28,240
wanted to be

1580
00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:30,800
a magician like a stage illusionist

1581
00:52:35,109 --> 00:52:33,359
and when he was i think like 15 years

1582
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:35,119
old he he ran away from home and joined

1583
00:52:39,829 --> 00:52:36,960
a circus apparently

1584
00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:39,839
and became the amazing randy

1585
00:52:43,670 --> 00:52:41,440
and um

1586
00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:43,680
and he was very similar to houdini in

1587
00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:47,200
the sense that he saw people

1588
00:52:51,510 --> 00:52:49,440
who were using the same methods of stage

1589
00:52:54,950 --> 00:52:51,520
magic as he saw it

1590
00:52:56,390 --> 00:52:54,960
but were pretending to be really magic

1591
00:52:58,230 --> 00:52:56,400
and they'd often charge all amount of

1592
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:58,240
money for example performing miracles

1593
00:53:02,790 --> 00:53:00,240
telling you your fortune telling you

1594
00:53:04,309 --> 00:53:02,800
which job to apply for which horse to

1595
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:04,319
bet on in a race

1596
00:53:07,589 --> 00:53:05,760
things like that

1597
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:07,599
and for small fee they would they would

1598
00:53:11,510 --> 00:53:09,440
go and they would do that and contact

1599
00:53:12,630 --> 00:53:11,520
your dead relatives things like that

1600
00:53:16,069 --> 00:53:12,640
and

1601
00:53:17,990 --> 00:53:16,079
realized these were just charlatans they

1602
00:53:19,670 --> 00:53:18,000
were they were using the same methods as

1603
00:53:21,589 --> 00:53:19,680
stage illusionism

1604
00:53:23,430 --> 00:53:21,599
but they were pretending to be real

1605
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:23,440
and uh the bane of his life was uri

1606
00:53:28,069 --> 00:53:26,400
geller who uh actually he throws to

1607
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:28,079
prominence in 1970 he came over from

1608
00:53:32,470 --> 00:53:30,240
israel and started bending spoons

1609
00:53:34,230 --> 00:53:32,480
and things like that um

1610
00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:34,240
he's a bit of a he's not a very original

1611
00:53:38,549 --> 00:53:36,240
magician in that sense however there's a

1612
00:53:40,150 --> 00:53:38,559
there's a story behind um

1613
00:53:43,589 --> 00:53:40,160
arrigela which i don't have time to talk

1614
00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:43,599
about now but he was recruited to the

1615
00:53:47,030 --> 00:53:45,440
remote viewing program for the cia and

1616
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:47,040
for mossad it's a very very long story

1617
00:53:50,390 --> 00:53:48,720
but that's actually been confirmed now

1618
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:50,400
but randy never talks about that and

1619
00:53:53,829 --> 00:53:52,079
there's a reason why he doesn't which i

1620
00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:53,839
will talk about in the longer version of

1621
00:53:57,190 --> 00:53:55,760
this discussion

1622
00:53:59,670 --> 00:53:57,200
but he um

1623
00:54:02,230 --> 00:53:59,680
he founded the james randy educational

1624
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:02,240
foundation and said there's several

1625
00:54:06,549 --> 00:54:04,160
conferences he set up which are called

1626
00:54:08,069 --> 00:54:06,559
the amazing meeting after the amazing

1627
00:54:09,510 --> 00:54:08,079
randy and they became very successful

1628
00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:09,520
there's been about i think there's been

1629
00:54:13,109 --> 00:54:11,440
about 15 of those conferences including

1630
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:13,119
one over here in britain there was there

1631
00:54:15,829 --> 00:54:14,880
was tom london which i went along to

1632
00:54:18,309 --> 00:54:15,839
actually

1633
00:54:20,549 --> 00:54:18,319
it was in the the london metropole

1634
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:20,559
hilton very very posh place it wasn't

1635
00:54:22,950 --> 00:54:22,160
cheap actually i couldn't afford to go

1636
00:54:25,349 --> 00:54:22,960
again

1637
00:54:26,950 --> 00:54:25,359
i just went once and um

1638
00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:26,960
again it was it was strange to be there

1639
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:28,720
and realize that i was kind of in a

1640
00:54:31,670 --> 00:54:30,240
parallel world

1641
00:54:33,510 --> 00:54:31,680
and but i had some very interesting

1642
00:54:36,230 --> 00:54:33,520
experiences which i'll talk about in in

1643
00:54:38,230 --> 00:54:36,240
a little while when i was there not just

1644
00:54:40,549 --> 00:54:38,240
relating to randy i met randy actually i

1645
00:54:42,230 --> 00:54:40,559
spoke to him he's a quite short guy

1646
00:54:43,589 --> 00:54:42,240
and i just said hello to him i was

1647
00:54:44,870 --> 00:54:43,599
actually introduced by a guy called dave

1648
00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:44,880
alan greene

1649
00:54:49,510 --> 00:54:47,280
who um he runs

1650
00:54:51,109 --> 00:54:49,520
the westminster skeptics in the pub who

1651
00:54:52,870 --> 00:54:51,119
has outed me

1652
00:54:54,150 --> 00:54:52,880
as a woo-woo

1653
00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:54,160
yeah well actually it was one of the

1654
00:54:56,950 --> 00:54:55,440
trolls didn't like actually wrote him

1655
00:54:59,270 --> 00:54:56,960
and said are you aware you have a

1656
00:55:00,950 --> 00:54:59,280
believer attending your conferences your

1657
00:55:02,710 --> 00:55:00,960
your your skeptic meetings and he said

1658
00:55:04,870 --> 00:55:02,720
yeah it's all right and when i went in

1659
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:04,880
again dave came up and he said i've been

1660
00:55:08,230 --> 00:55:06,880
hearing stories about you ben

1661
00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:08,240
but anyway um

1662
00:55:11,670 --> 00:55:09,680
he was all right dave was fine with me

1663
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:11,680
attending bingham being a believer and

1664
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:13,520
attending but he introduced me to randy

1665
00:55:17,589 --> 00:55:15,839
and i i spoke to randy briefly

1666
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:17,599
and

1667
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:18,960
but um

1668
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:20,720
he has um

1669
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:22,480
he he has like a

1670
00:55:26,630 --> 00:55:24,960
lot he is a showman essentially he's

1671
00:55:28,789 --> 00:55:26,640
trained his entire life to perform on

1672
00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:28,799
stage to people he's been on tv

1673
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:30,400
he's been on tours he's been all over

1674
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:33,680
the place he's he's invested he's

1675
00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:35,599
he's really like

1676
00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:37,119
somebody who knows how to act he

1677
00:55:42,069 --> 00:55:40,160
essentially is an actor and he does act

1678
00:55:43,670 --> 00:55:42,079
and he tells

1679
00:55:45,750 --> 00:55:43,680
untruths about people

1680
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:45,760
there's a guy called rupert sheldrake

1681
00:55:49,589 --> 00:55:48,000
who is willing to work with skeptics he

1682
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:49,599
works closely with chris french he's a

1683
00:55:52,549 --> 00:55:51,040
guy who came up with more for genetic

1684
00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:52,559
fields so he's kind of on our side of

1685
00:55:55,670 --> 00:55:54,480
the fence with things like that

1686
00:55:57,270 --> 00:55:55,680
but he won't work with randy because

1687
00:55:58,710 --> 00:55:57,280
he's randy's a liar

1688
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:58,720
i've got an audio actually i play in the

1689
00:56:03,190 --> 00:56:00,880
longer version of this talk where he he

1690
00:56:05,030 --> 00:56:03,200
goes into more detail about the the the

1691
00:56:06,390 --> 00:56:05,040
fact that randy attacked him personally

1692
00:56:09,030 --> 00:56:06,400
trying to smear him randy's done this

1693
00:56:09,910 --> 00:56:09,040
several times to people

1694
00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:09,920
but

1695
00:56:12,870 --> 00:56:11,280
he is

1696
00:56:14,950 --> 00:56:12,880
considered a lily white angel of

1697
00:56:16,309 --> 00:56:14,960
skepticism within the skeptic movement

1698
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:16,319
everyone thinks he's wonderful he's like

1699
00:56:20,470 --> 00:56:18,400
he's everybody's granddad

1700
00:56:21,750 --> 00:56:20,480
and his death actually represent means

1701
00:56:23,990 --> 00:56:21,760
it really is the end of an era for a

1702
00:56:24,789 --> 00:56:24,000
skeptic movement i think

1703
00:56:26,630 --> 00:56:24,799
but

1704
00:56:27,910 --> 00:56:26,640
the reason people think i think really

1705
00:56:29,349 --> 00:56:27,920
look up to him within the skeptic

1706
00:56:31,190 --> 00:56:29,359
movement

1707
00:56:34,390 --> 00:56:31,200
is this

1708
00:56:35,829 --> 00:56:34,400
that is one million us dollars

1709
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:35,839
randy has done exactly the same as

1710
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:38,079
houdini or maybe it's houdini and around

1711
00:56:43,349 --> 00:56:41,040
his body we don't know but it's more

1712
00:56:45,109 --> 00:56:43,359
it's even more money randy in the 60s

1713
00:56:47,109 --> 00:56:45,119
decided because he did what houdini did

1714
00:56:48,870 --> 00:56:47,119
he decided to expose what he saw as the

1715
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:48,880
fake mediums

1716
00:56:54,549 --> 00:56:52,240
so he set up his the james randy

1717
00:56:57,270 --> 00:56:54,559
million dollar challenge

1718
00:56:59,190 --> 00:56:57,280
this is organized in and um

1719
00:57:01,349 --> 00:56:59,200
and administered by the james around the

1720
00:57:03,670 --> 00:57:01,359
educational foundation

1721
00:57:05,109 --> 00:57:03,680
and um what you do is he he challenges

1722
00:57:07,270 --> 00:57:05,119
people who believe in something or have

1723
00:57:08,789 --> 00:57:07,280
some kind of psychic ability or can do

1724
00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:08,799
anything miraculous

1725
00:57:13,990 --> 00:57:11,280
to prove it in a properly controlled

1726
00:57:15,589 --> 00:57:14,000
scientific tests

1727
00:57:16,950 --> 00:57:15,599
properly organized

1728
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:16,960
by conditions which are agreed

1729
00:57:19,910 --> 00:57:18,319
beforehand with lawyers and with

1730
00:57:21,510 --> 00:57:19,920
everyone else if you can go up and you

1731
00:57:23,829 --> 00:57:21,520
can perform it in a controlled

1732
00:57:26,470 --> 00:57:23,839
investigative condition he will give you

1733
00:57:27,829 --> 00:57:26,480
one million us dollars

1734
00:57:29,829 --> 00:57:27,839
and um

1735
00:57:30,789 --> 00:57:29,839
he no one's ever won those million

1736
00:57:33,829 --> 00:57:30,799
dollars

1737
00:57:35,510 --> 00:57:33,839
and this for randy is his way of saying

1738
00:57:36,870 --> 00:57:35,520
all these things are not true these

1739
00:57:38,789 --> 00:57:36,880
people are all lies because if they was

1740
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:38,799
someone if they if it was true someone

1741
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:39,920
would have come along and won this

1742
00:57:43,670 --> 00:57:42,079
million dollars in fact it's you

1743
00:57:45,109 --> 00:57:43,680
generally saying that skeptics like old

1744
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:45,119
jokes

1745
00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:48,640
randy's on stage and this happened at

1746
00:57:53,510 --> 00:57:51,280
the tam london

1747
00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:53,520
um frenchy always french was actually

1748
00:57:56,470 --> 00:57:54,880
the uh

1749
00:57:58,870 --> 00:57:56,480
the master of ceremonies and he said he

1750
00:58:00,069 --> 00:57:58,880
said randy i can't help imitating his

1751
00:58:01,910 --> 00:58:00,079
voice

1752
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:01,920
randy tell me in all the times that

1753
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:03,359
you've been administering the million

1754
00:58:07,750 --> 00:58:05,520
dollar challenge has anyone ever come

1755
00:58:09,910 --> 00:58:07,760
along and made you think this is it

1756
00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:09,920
we've got someone who's going to win it

1757
00:58:13,829 --> 00:58:12,079
and randy says no

1758
00:58:15,589 --> 00:58:13,839
and everyone laughs

1759
00:58:16,950 --> 00:58:15,599
everyone knows he's going to say that

1760
00:58:21,270 --> 00:58:16,960
but they still laugh and they laugh

1761
00:58:24,870 --> 00:58:23,430
now you you might think i mean and on

1762
00:58:26,870 --> 00:58:24,880
the surface this is what skeptics will

1763
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:26,880
always bring this up

1764
00:58:32,950 --> 00:58:29,440
how come nobody nobody's ever won

1765
00:58:34,390 --> 00:58:32,960
the jrf one million dollar challenge

1766
00:58:35,990 --> 00:58:34,400
and it's when you look at when you go to

1767
00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:36,000
the j ref reps it's actually been

1768
00:58:39,910 --> 00:58:37,920
stopped now actually was it was stopped

1769
00:58:42,150 --> 00:58:39,920
so the the challenge was discontinued a

1770
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:42,160
couple of years ago when randy sort of

1771
00:58:46,549 --> 00:58:45,440
stepped back from and sort of retired um

1772
00:58:47,910 --> 00:58:46,559
but before then you could look at the

1773
00:58:49,750 --> 00:58:47,920
pages and it's i think they're all

1774
00:58:51,510 --> 00:58:49,760
archived you look through it all does

1775
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:51,520
look above board

1776
00:58:54,789 --> 00:58:53,040
it has the

1777
00:58:56,710 --> 00:58:54,799
superficially you can read through that

1778
00:58:58,470 --> 00:58:56,720
and think yes this makes sense if i had

1779
00:59:00,950 --> 00:58:58,480
some kind of psychic ability i'd go for

1780
00:59:02,789 --> 00:59:00,960
this and win the million dollars

1781
00:59:06,789 --> 00:59:02,799
but it's not

1782
00:59:10,950 --> 00:59:09,430
this is a lawsuit here by george

1783
00:59:12,390 --> 00:59:10,960
simpson

1784
00:59:15,270 --> 00:59:12,400
you can see here there's the firm at the

1785
00:59:16,789 --> 00:59:15,280
top this is a george this is a lawsuit

1786
00:59:18,870 --> 00:59:16,799
against the jrf

1787
00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:18,880
it mentions dj grothy who was the uh

1788
00:59:25,349 --> 00:59:22,240
president of the jrf and uh james randy

1789
00:59:26,870 --> 00:59:25,359
yeah randall james hamilton's wing

1790
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:26,880
george simpson

1791
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:28,160
basically

1792
00:59:31,349 --> 00:59:29,520
applied he applied for the million

1793
00:59:33,510 --> 00:59:31,359
dollar challenge and he then went on to

1794
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:33,520
sue the jruff for wrongful termination

1795
00:59:36,950 --> 00:59:35,280
of contract

1796
00:59:40,470 --> 00:59:36,960
this is very interesting

1797
00:59:41,910 --> 00:59:40,480
now the skeptics don't talk about this

1798
00:59:44,230 --> 00:59:41,920
they never talk about it there was one

1799
00:59:45,430 --> 00:59:44,240
thread on the csi forum i remember

1800
00:59:47,829 --> 00:59:45,440
because i'm actually a member of lots of

1801
00:59:49,829 --> 00:59:47,839
these skeptic forums i go i go under a

1802
00:59:51,030 --> 00:59:49,839
fake id i don't tell them who i am but

1803
00:59:52,230 --> 00:59:51,040
i'm a member of some of these skeptic

1804
00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:52,240
forms i used to be i don't really bother

1805
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:54,160
with them anymore but when this came up

1806
00:59:57,829 --> 00:59:56,079
they just they just there's a very very

1807
01:00:01,510 --> 00:59:57,839
short thread which no one ever really

1808
01:00:02,950 --> 01:00:01,520
got into very very much and um it ended

1809
01:00:04,710 --> 01:00:02,960
basically the theme of it was oh we're

1810
01:00:06,069 --> 01:00:04,720
all on randy's side randy's the good guy

1811
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:06,079
here

1812
01:00:09,270 --> 01:00:07,440
and they never really explored the

1813
01:00:10,470 --> 01:00:09,280
details of this very much and they don't

1814
01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:10,480
i'm going to bring up another case in a

1815
01:00:14,710 --> 01:00:12,160
minute where they also seem to have a

1816
01:00:17,030 --> 01:00:14,720
very extraordinary lack of perception

1817
01:00:19,430 --> 01:00:17,040
of themselves extraordinary inability

1818
01:00:22,630 --> 01:00:19,440
for introspection

1819
01:00:24,390 --> 01:00:22,640
but this actually is monumental because

1820
01:00:26,230 --> 01:00:24,400
what happens simpson sued them what he

1821
01:00:27,430 --> 01:00:26,240
basically is claiming

1822
01:00:28,630 --> 01:00:27,440
is that he applied for the million

1823
01:00:30,390 --> 01:00:28,640
dollar challenge

1824
01:00:32,950 --> 01:00:30,400
he did the preliminary test and passed

1825
01:00:34,789 --> 01:00:32,960
the preliminary tests then he he assumed

1826
01:00:36,630 --> 01:00:34,799
because that's what the rules say the

1827
01:00:37,829 --> 01:00:36,640
jriff would invite him back to do the

1828
01:00:39,030 --> 01:00:37,839
proper test

1829
01:00:40,630 --> 01:00:39,040
and they just stopped returning his

1830
01:00:42,630 --> 01:00:40,640
calls

1831
01:00:43,829 --> 01:00:42,640
they ghosted him

1832
01:00:45,109 --> 01:00:43,839
they wouldn't answer his emails or

1833
01:00:47,750 --> 01:00:45,119
nothing like that so he took he took

1834
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:47,760
this to court and he said they they just

1835
01:00:50,150 --> 01:00:48,960
they just so they can't do this

1836
01:00:52,309 --> 01:00:50,160
according to their own contract they

1837
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:52,319
can't just terminate me like this

1838
01:00:55,349 --> 01:00:53,680
yeah i went above board it's all done

1839
01:00:56,549 --> 01:00:55,359
above board according to all these long

1840
01:00:59,030 --> 01:00:56,559
list of rules that are part of the

1841
01:01:00,870 --> 01:00:59,040
giangraph so jf didn't really have a leg

1842
01:01:03,190 --> 01:01:00,880
to stand on

1843
01:01:05,109 --> 01:01:03,200
now what's interesting is that um

1844
01:01:06,470 --> 01:01:05,119
this this went to and this went to and

1845
01:01:08,549 --> 01:01:06,480
throw for a while it was covered on the

1846
01:01:09,990 --> 01:01:08,559
csi thread the only place in the entire

1847
01:01:11,349 --> 01:01:10,000
skeptosphere where anyone was talking

1848
01:01:13,349 --> 01:01:11,359
about it

1849
01:01:14,710 --> 01:01:13,359
and then it just then what happened was

1850
01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:14,720
the csi

1851
01:01:18,230 --> 01:01:16,720
deleted the thread

1852
01:01:20,549 --> 01:01:18,240
and

1853
01:01:22,390 --> 01:01:20,559
all details were removed from all the

1854
01:01:25,109 --> 01:01:22,400
other all the other places george

1855
01:01:28,309 --> 01:01:25,119
simpson's website also removed

1856
01:01:30,549 --> 01:01:28,319
all details relating to this incident

1857
01:01:32,630 --> 01:01:30,559
so basically both sides simpson and the

1858
01:01:34,710 --> 01:01:32,640
jref both went quiet and they didn't

1859
01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:34,720
discuss it anymore that can only mean

1860
01:01:38,950 --> 01:01:36,160
one thing

1861
01:01:41,030 --> 01:01:38,960
they settled out of court

1862
01:01:42,630 --> 01:01:41,040
and that's an interesting question why

1863
01:01:44,470 --> 01:01:42,640
why did

1864
01:01:45,510 --> 01:01:44,480
grothy and the others at the jrf settle

1865
01:01:47,670 --> 01:01:45,520
why did they settle out of court why

1866
01:01:49,910 --> 01:01:47,680
didn't they fight this

1867
01:01:52,309 --> 01:01:49,920
if the jref really the jref million

1868
01:01:55,109 --> 01:01:52,319
dollar challenge really is the last word

1869
01:01:57,349 --> 01:01:55,119
the black and white line in the sand

1870
01:01:59,589 --> 01:01:57,359
over which every paranormal claim has to

1871
01:02:02,549 --> 01:01:59,599
pass over and it's so simple it's so

1872
01:02:05,589 --> 01:02:02,559
obvious it's so it's so transparent that

1873
01:02:07,109 --> 01:02:05,599
if real paranormal abilities existed

1874
01:02:09,190 --> 01:02:07,119
then we'd know about them because of

1875
01:02:11,029 --> 01:02:09,200
this if that is true why didn't they

1876
01:02:12,630 --> 01:02:11,039
fight it in court just think what just

1877
01:02:14,549 --> 01:02:12,640
think what great publicity that would

1878
01:02:16,230 --> 01:02:14,559
have been for randy for the jrf for the

1879
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:16,240
skeptic movement they fought george

1880
01:02:19,990 --> 01:02:18,240
simpson in court on one

1881
01:02:22,390 --> 01:02:20,000
a guy you command randy can't a guy

1882
01:02:24,870 --> 01:02:22,400
tried to sue me one day and uh well i

1883
01:02:26,950 --> 01:02:24,880
took him to court and i screwed him

1884
01:02:28,390 --> 01:02:26,960
just imagine that but they didn't

1885
01:02:29,750 --> 01:02:28,400
that's interesting thing which they

1886
01:02:32,950 --> 01:02:29,760
don't talk about the skeptics don't talk

1887
01:02:34,230 --> 01:02:32,960
about it this is project alpha

1888
01:02:36,150 --> 01:02:34,240
this is very interesting that there on

1889
01:02:37,670 --> 01:02:36,160
the on the right is james randy and that

1890
01:02:39,829 --> 01:02:37,680
and the two guys next to these two young

1891
01:02:41,270 --> 01:02:39,839
fellows are mike edwards and steve shaw

1892
01:02:42,710 --> 01:02:41,280
steve shaw at the bottom there he's

1893
01:02:44,309 --> 01:02:42,720
today called banner check and he's a

1894
01:02:45,910 --> 01:02:44,319
magician

1895
01:02:47,990 --> 01:02:45,920
yet um a few a number of years ago when

1896
01:02:49,750 --> 01:02:48,000
they were kids they were like amateur

1897
01:02:51,910 --> 01:02:49,760
magicians when they used to do card

1898
01:02:53,270 --> 01:02:51,920
tricks and ben spoons like uri geller

1899
01:02:54,710 --> 01:02:53,280
and they used to they did they didn't do

1900
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:54,720
it professionally they just did it to

1901
01:02:58,470 --> 01:02:56,400
amuse their school friends just to play

1902
01:02:59,829 --> 01:02:58,480
tricks in class and things like that

1903
01:03:03,029 --> 01:02:59,839
yet something very interesting happened

1904
01:03:05,190 --> 01:03:03,039
james mcdonald of mcdonald douglas

1905
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:05,200
um he was he's a bit like bob bigelow

1906
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:06,720
you know bob bigelow's doing this bix

1907
01:03:09,910 --> 01:03:07,920
thing um

1908
01:03:12,309 --> 01:03:09,920
that's not this this other guy james

1909
01:03:13,510 --> 01:03:12,319
mcdonald in 1979 he tried to do

1910
01:03:15,910 --> 01:03:13,520
something similar

1911
01:03:17,190 --> 01:03:15,920
he called it the james mcdonald psychic

1912
01:03:19,750 --> 01:03:17,200
laboratory he set it up at the

1913
01:03:21,589 --> 01:03:19,760
washington university usa and he paid

1914
01:03:23,430 --> 01:03:21,599
half a million dollars she put into it

1915
01:03:25,270 --> 01:03:23,440
was a lot of money in those days

1916
01:03:27,829 --> 01:03:25,280
he recruited the best psychic

1917
01:03:29,589 --> 01:03:27,839
researchers in the world to come and

1918
01:03:32,630 --> 01:03:29,599
study at this laboratory to try and find

1919
01:03:34,789 --> 01:03:32,640
real paranormal phenomena

1920
01:03:36,470 --> 01:03:34,799
and um it's privately funded by him it

1921
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:36,480
was all all out of his own pocket he was

1922
01:03:40,230 --> 01:03:37,920
very he's a real enthusiast james

1923
01:03:41,829 --> 01:03:40,240
mcdonald he really was

1924
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:41,839
around he decided

1925
01:03:45,750 --> 01:03:43,760
to try and infiltrate

1926
01:03:48,710 --> 01:03:45,760
this this group

1927
01:03:50,309 --> 01:03:48,720
and put in some fake psychics to see how

1928
01:03:52,230 --> 01:03:50,319
far they would go

1929
01:03:53,589 --> 01:03:52,240
this way just seeing how good research

1930
01:03:55,510 --> 01:03:53,599
how good were these researchers that

1931
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:55,520
mcdonald had actually had actually

1932
01:03:58,470 --> 01:03:56,960
recruited

1933
01:03:59,829 --> 01:03:58,480
were they really up to the scratch what

1934
01:04:01,430 --> 01:03:59,839
was paranormal investigation and

1935
01:04:03,190 --> 01:04:01,440
psychical research really a proper

1936
01:04:05,190 --> 01:04:03,200
science that's what was under under

1937
01:04:07,589 --> 01:04:05,200
under will's being tested here so he got

1938
01:04:08,789 --> 01:04:07,599
shawn edwards now to go he said go up to

1939
01:04:09,910 --> 01:04:08,799
because you're unknown like these two

1940
01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:09,920
guys they'd like to say it was just

1941
01:04:14,230 --> 01:04:12,400
amateurs they did tricks at school they

1942
01:04:16,069 --> 01:04:14,240
weren't they didn't have a public face

1943
01:04:17,430 --> 01:04:16,079
where you know if they turn up and

1944
01:04:18,870 --> 01:04:17,440
mcdonald could like look them up and

1945
01:04:21,750 --> 01:04:18,880
find out they were working for randy or

1946
01:04:25,829 --> 01:04:23,109
just go in there

1947
01:04:27,670 --> 01:04:25,839
use your tricks

1948
01:04:29,029 --> 01:04:27,680
i'll see if how far you can get now

1949
01:04:29,990 --> 01:04:29,039
there are two there were two stories to

1950
01:04:32,549 --> 01:04:30,000
this

1951
01:04:34,069 --> 01:04:32,559
firstly according to james roundly he's

1952
01:04:36,950 --> 01:04:34,079
he did there's a video of him boasting

1953
01:04:39,109 --> 01:04:36,960
about it game set and match to him

1954
01:04:40,390 --> 01:04:39,119
edwards and shaw went in there matt labs

1955
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:40,400
were overwhelmed

1956
01:04:43,510 --> 01:04:42,000
and their eyes were their eyes were

1957
01:04:44,710 --> 01:04:43,520
spinning because they found real

1958
01:04:46,069 --> 01:04:44,720
psychics

1959
01:04:47,349 --> 01:04:46,079
and stephen shaw are sitting there going

1960
01:04:49,270 --> 01:04:47,359
like that doing their little tricks you

1961
01:04:50,870 --> 01:04:49,280
know bending spoons secretly and things

1962
01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:50,880
like that switching props and stuff like

1963
01:04:56,950 --> 01:04:52,720
that and going we got them fooled here

1964
01:04:58,789 --> 01:04:56,960
we got them fooled and then in 1983

1965
01:05:00,789 --> 01:04:58,799
the big reveal came

1966
01:05:01,990 --> 01:05:00,799
the matlabs people organized a press

1967
01:05:03,670 --> 01:05:02,000
conference

1968
01:05:04,870 --> 01:05:03,680
and they invited all the world's media

1969
01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:04,880
this was their moment this is when they

1970
01:05:08,630 --> 01:05:06,960
were going to get a nobel prize

1971
01:05:10,870 --> 01:05:08,640
ladies and gentlemen

1972
01:05:13,589 --> 01:05:10,880
we have two real psychics that have been

1973
01:05:17,270 --> 01:05:13,599
scientifically proven to be true come in

1974
01:05:18,950 --> 01:05:17,280
steve shaw and mike edwards

1975
01:05:20,710 --> 01:05:18,960
mike edwards steve shaw and my kid would

1976
01:05:23,029 --> 01:05:20,720
come up to the microphone they go and

1977
01:05:24,549 --> 01:05:23,039
everyone goes to them um steve mike tell

1978
01:05:26,150 --> 01:05:24,559
us about what you were doing at mac labs

1979
01:05:27,430 --> 01:05:26,160
nikki well to be honest ladies and

1980
01:05:30,470 --> 01:05:27,440
gentlemen

1981
01:05:35,589 --> 01:05:33,430
shock horror red faces embarrassment all

1982
01:05:37,430 --> 01:05:35,599
round everyone at mac labs goes oh my

1983
01:05:38,789 --> 01:05:37,440
god

1984
01:05:39,829 --> 01:05:38,799
and they walk away and they're really

1985
01:05:41,589 --> 01:05:39,839
really

1986
01:05:43,029 --> 01:05:41,599
and they're totally not only shane face

1987
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:43,039
randy likes playing his little tricks on

1988
01:05:46,789 --> 01:05:45,280
people you know that's that's the story

1989
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:46,799
according to james randy however someone

1990
01:05:49,910 --> 01:05:48,079
called michael falborn has written

1991
01:05:51,670 --> 01:05:49,920
another article about this was actually

1992
01:05:53,109 --> 01:05:51,680
published in nexus magazine

1993
01:05:54,630 --> 01:05:53,119
which actually takes that whole thing

1994
01:05:56,870 --> 01:05:54,640
apart

1995
01:05:59,349 --> 01:05:56,880
and realizes that that randy is actually

1996
01:06:00,710 --> 01:05:59,359
presenting a fake account of what really

1997
01:06:03,990 --> 01:06:00,720
happened

1998
01:06:06,470 --> 01:06:04,000
firstly the mac labs team never ever

1999
01:06:08,470 --> 01:06:06,480
made that announcement they never said

2000
01:06:09,829 --> 01:06:08,480
that ed was unsure were the real thing

2001
01:06:11,349 --> 01:06:09,839
they were interested at first with what

2002
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:11,359
they were doing but they never actually

2003
01:06:14,710 --> 01:06:12,559
made their they said it was they were

2004
01:06:15,910 --> 01:06:14,720
encouraged by the initial um the initial

2005
01:06:17,670 --> 01:06:15,920
test they were doing but they never

2006
01:06:19,270 --> 01:06:17,680
actually came forward and said sean

2007
01:06:20,390 --> 01:06:19,280
edwards are real and in fact later on

2008
01:06:22,069 --> 01:06:20,400
one of them said that they actually

2009
01:06:23,190 --> 01:06:22,079
suspected those guys are playing magic

2010
01:06:25,109 --> 01:06:23,200
tricks

2011
01:06:26,630 --> 01:06:25,119
and they started to control from it

2012
01:06:28,230 --> 01:06:26,640
and that once they controlled from it

2013
01:06:29,990 --> 01:06:28,240
for it they realized that they didn't

2014
01:06:32,470 --> 01:06:30,000
take any more interest in these guys

2015
01:06:35,029 --> 01:06:32,480
the event which took place in 1983

2016
01:06:37,430 --> 01:06:35,039
was not a mac labs press conference it

2017
01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:37,440
was nature magazine the mac labs team

2018
01:06:41,510 --> 01:06:38,960
just had a little segment in there which

2019
01:06:42,549 --> 01:06:41,520
is the warm-up act

2020
01:06:44,549 --> 01:06:42,559
thirdly

2021
01:06:47,349 --> 01:06:44,559
shaw and edwards were dropped from the

2022
01:06:48,950 --> 01:06:47,359
project in 1982 a whole year

2023
01:06:50,150 --> 01:06:48,960
before the matlab's presentation they

2024
01:06:51,510 --> 01:06:50,160
were told they were actually invited

2025
01:06:53,190 --> 01:06:51,520
back just

2026
01:06:56,069 --> 01:06:53,200
just for like for old time's sake when

2027
01:06:57,670 --> 01:06:56,079
they did this um this press conference

2028
01:07:01,670 --> 01:06:57,680
so

2029
01:07:03,589 --> 01:07:01,680
who's telling the truth here randy orton

2030
01:07:05,510 --> 01:07:03,599
you can believe randy if you like

2031
01:07:07,750 --> 01:07:05,520
but he's he's a showman

2032
01:07:12,390 --> 01:07:07,760
and he's he lies he's there's several

2033
01:07:17,029 --> 01:07:15,029
but credit where credit's due

2034
01:07:18,870 --> 01:07:17,039
peter pop off now this is one of these

2035
01:07:19,750 --> 01:07:18,880
tally evangelists the reason i'm

2036
01:07:21,750 --> 01:07:19,760
bringing this up because this is

2037
01:07:24,630 --> 01:07:21,760
something good that randy did but it led

2038
01:07:25,910 --> 01:07:24,640
to something very very bad later on

2039
01:07:27,750 --> 01:07:25,920
peter popoff is one of these tele

2040
01:07:29,589 --> 01:07:27,760
evangelists this is a uniquely american

2041
01:07:30,950 --> 01:07:29,599
phenomenon where these like these

2042
01:07:33,750 --> 01:07:30,960
preachers with these big southern

2043
01:07:35,510 --> 01:07:33,760
baptist voices voices they fill football

2044
01:07:36,870 --> 01:07:35,520
stadiums full of people going oh the

2045
01:07:39,430 --> 01:07:36,880
lord is with you

2046
01:07:42,549 --> 01:07:39,440
and and healing apparently performing

2047
01:07:44,150 --> 01:07:42,559
miraculous healing on people

2048
01:07:46,470 --> 01:07:44,160
and what's what what about pop-off is

2049
01:07:48,549 --> 01:07:46,480
that when he was doing this miraculous

2050
01:07:50,630 --> 01:07:48,559
healing he seemed to know everyone's

2051
01:07:52,870 --> 01:07:50,640
name in the audience

2052
01:07:54,870 --> 01:07:52,880
he seemed to know who they were

2053
01:07:55,910 --> 01:07:54,880
and um he said that the angels were

2054
01:07:57,349 --> 01:07:55,920
telling him when he was doing this

2055
01:07:59,029 --> 01:07:57,359
miraculous healing

2056
01:08:00,870 --> 01:07:59,039
however someone in the audience noticed

2057
01:08:02,390 --> 01:08:00,880
that he had like some strange object in

2058
01:08:04,390 --> 01:08:02,400
one of his ears

2059
01:08:05,910 --> 01:08:04,400
it was actually an electronic earpiece

2060
01:08:08,470 --> 01:08:05,920
covered by a flesh-coloured piece of

2061
01:08:10,470 --> 01:08:08,480
plastic so it couldn't be seen

2062
01:08:14,230 --> 01:08:10,480
and they really what they thought was

2063
01:08:16,390 --> 01:08:14,240
that he was getting insider information

2064
01:08:17,990 --> 01:08:16,400
beamed to him by someone basically

2065
01:08:19,349 --> 01:08:18,000
talking to him into his earpiece giving

2066
01:08:20,229 --> 01:08:19,359
insider information on the audience

2067
01:08:22,149 --> 01:08:20,239
because the audience when they were

2068
01:08:23,430 --> 01:08:22,159
coming in they filled out prayer cards

2069
01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:23,440
giving them the names and everything and

2070
01:08:27,510 --> 01:08:25,679
put them in there it's what they do as i

2071
01:08:29,510 --> 01:08:27,520
said this is an american sort of a big

2072
01:08:31,110 --> 01:08:29,520
big business american religious

2073
01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:31,120
practice

2074
01:08:36,550 --> 01:08:33,120
so randy sent in a guy with a with a

2075
01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:38,789
in 1986 a man sneaked in there with this

2076
01:08:43,030 --> 01:08:40,560
radio scanner to see what he could pick

2077
01:08:45,269 --> 01:08:43,040
up and indeed he heard they picked up

2078
01:08:46,630 --> 01:08:45,279
the signal of somebody

2079
01:08:49,749 --> 01:08:46,640
beaming

2080
01:08:51,189 --> 01:08:49,759
and you could hear him talking the lady

2081
01:08:53,110 --> 01:08:51,199
at the bottom of the road is called

2082
01:08:54,870 --> 01:08:53,120
so-and-so that lady over there is called

2083
01:08:55,829 --> 01:08:54,880
so-and-so things like that

2084
01:08:57,430 --> 01:08:55,839
so

2085
01:08:58,950 --> 01:08:57,440
to be honest this guy was a con man he

2086
01:09:01,349 --> 01:08:58,960
was proven to be a con man and someone

2087
01:09:03,669 --> 01:09:01,359
exposed him if randy did that well good

2088
01:09:05,269 --> 01:09:03,679
the problem is

2089
01:09:07,189 --> 01:09:05,279
skeptics

2090
01:09:09,510 --> 01:09:07,199
suffer from a terrible

2091
01:09:11,829 --> 01:09:09,520
problem when it comes to hubris

2092
01:09:13,269 --> 01:09:11,839
they get too big for their boots and as

2093
01:09:15,349 --> 01:09:13,279
i said because of their lack of

2094
01:09:17,669 --> 01:09:15,359
understanding of themselves

2095
01:09:19,669 --> 01:09:17,679
they often make enormous blunders they

2096
01:09:21,110 --> 01:09:19,679
who claim to be the ultimate arbiters of

2097
01:09:22,789 --> 01:09:21,120
what is true or false through science

2098
01:09:24,470 --> 01:09:22,799
and reason and evidence and empiricism

2099
01:09:26,309 --> 01:09:24,480
and all these sorts of things

2100
01:09:28,950 --> 01:09:26,319
show a remarkable lack of understanding

2101
01:09:31,990 --> 01:09:28,960
of what that process really is

2102
01:09:33,269 --> 01:09:32,000
case in point psychic sally morgan you

2103
01:09:34,789 --> 01:09:33,279
seen this lady

2104
01:09:36,709 --> 01:09:34,799
she's a very famous psychic medium

2105
01:09:39,110 --> 01:09:36,719
appeared on the living channel today she

2106
01:09:40,789 --> 01:09:39,120
does theater tours and things like that

2107
01:09:42,870 --> 01:09:40,799
now what happened was she appeared in in

2108
01:09:44,309 --> 01:09:42,880
dublin ireland and someone in the

2109
01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:44,319
audience claimed they heard someone

2110
01:09:50,870 --> 01:09:46,400
backstage talking

2111
01:09:52,789 --> 01:09:50,880
um and was whispering things which um

2112
01:09:55,430 --> 01:09:52,799
they assumed were connected to what

2113
01:09:56,709 --> 01:09:55,440
sally was supposedly channeling

2114
01:10:00,229 --> 01:09:56,719
and

2115
01:10:02,149 --> 01:10:00,239
what happened was the skeptics took this

2116
01:10:03,590 --> 01:10:02,159
they picked it up and they blew it out

2117
01:10:06,070 --> 01:10:03,600
of poor proportion

2118
01:10:09,750 --> 01:10:06,080
and paul zenin who's a famous magician

2119
01:10:11,750 --> 01:10:09,760
and skeptic the two often go together

2120
01:10:13,750 --> 01:10:11,760
he he published an article in a daily

2121
01:10:15,510 --> 01:10:13,760
mail saying sally morgan is pulling a

2122
01:10:19,110 --> 01:10:15,520
pop off she's doing exactly the same

2123
01:10:21,510 --> 01:10:19,120
thing she has a radio earpiece

2124
01:10:23,030 --> 01:10:21,520
and she's receiving not psychic messages

2125
01:10:24,630 --> 01:10:23,040
but radio messages from someone

2126
01:10:26,470 --> 01:10:24,640
backstage giving her information on the

2127
01:10:27,830 --> 01:10:26,480
people in the audience they probably had

2128
01:10:29,350 --> 01:10:27,840
to fill out obviously you had to fill

2129
01:10:31,510 --> 01:10:29,360
out buy a ticket not to fill out a form

2130
01:10:33,189 --> 01:10:31,520
and things like that

2131
01:10:35,669 --> 01:10:33,199
the problem was there's no evidence that

2132
01:10:37,750 --> 01:10:35,679
this is the case now if i'd been

2133
01:10:38,709 --> 01:10:37,760
this is where i out skeptic the skeptics

2134
01:10:40,070 --> 01:10:38,719
because

2135
01:10:41,510 --> 01:10:40,080
if i'd been in that position what i

2136
01:10:44,550 --> 01:10:41,520
would have done is i'd have done what

2137
01:10:46,390 --> 01:10:44,560
james randy did i'd have got a um

2138
01:10:47,990 --> 01:10:46,400
i've got someone with a radio scanner

2139
01:10:49,030 --> 01:10:48,000
put inserted them into the audience to

2140
01:10:51,510 --> 01:10:49,040
see if they could pick up the

2141
01:10:53,350 --> 01:10:51,520
transmissions to and see see if sally

2142
01:10:54,630 --> 01:10:53,360
has something in here get like a

2143
01:10:56,310 --> 01:10:54,640
telescope and zoom in and see if she's

2144
01:10:58,390 --> 01:10:56,320
got something in her ear

2145
01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:58,400
the earpiece that's what i would do and

2146
01:11:01,669 --> 01:11:00,000
if she was found if she was doing that

2147
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:01,679
if she's really doing that i would say

2148
01:11:05,510 --> 01:11:04,080
expose her name and shame her

2149
01:11:06,950 --> 01:11:05,520
boot her out of the whole mediumship

2150
01:11:08,310 --> 01:11:06,960
circles

2151
01:11:09,590 --> 01:11:08,320
but no one did that they didn't bother

2152
01:11:11,350 --> 01:11:09,600
doing that they didn't bother gathering

2153
01:11:13,110 --> 01:11:11,360
the evidence

2154
01:11:15,750 --> 01:11:13,120
zenon just published this article and

2155
01:11:17,430 --> 01:11:15,760
sally morgan sued him and won 110 000

2156
01:11:19,830 --> 01:11:17,440
pounds in damages

2157
01:11:20,709 --> 01:11:19,840
plus costs very richly deserved i might

2158
01:11:22,390 --> 01:11:20,719
add

2159
01:11:24,310 --> 01:11:22,400
because she was she suffered harassment

2160
01:11:25,750 --> 01:11:24,320
as as i said there is a skeptic thug

2161
01:11:27,430 --> 01:11:25,760
element which i talked more about in the

2162
01:11:29,030 --> 01:11:27,440
longer version this talk

2163
01:11:30,790 --> 01:11:29,040
but they sent they sent her death

2164
01:11:32,950 --> 01:11:30,800
threats and all kinds of threats they

2165
01:11:34,870 --> 01:11:32,960
sent her pictures of dead bodies now

2166
01:11:36,070 --> 01:11:34,880
that's an interesting modus operandi

2167
01:11:38,229 --> 01:11:36,080
because

2168
01:11:39,990 --> 01:11:38,239
the skeptic thug element has sent other

2169
01:11:41,350 --> 01:11:40,000
people pictures of dead bodies when they

2170
01:11:42,950 --> 01:11:41,360
when they don't like them and want to

2171
01:11:45,030 --> 01:11:42,960
harass them and threaten them including

2172
01:11:46,390 --> 01:11:45,040
someone called rebecca watson

2173
01:11:48,870 --> 01:11:46,400
who i talk about in the longer version

2174
01:11:51,110 --> 01:11:48,880
of this talk i suspect the same people

2175
01:11:53,430 --> 01:11:51,120
who attacked rebecca watson were the

2176
01:11:54,950 --> 01:11:53,440
people who attacked sally morgan

2177
01:11:56,950 --> 01:11:54,960
so the hundred and ten thousand damages

2178
01:11:58,790 --> 01:11:56,960
was richly deserved

2179
01:12:00,709 --> 01:11:58,800
what's what's really galling is the

2180
01:12:02,950 --> 01:12:00,719
skeptics themselves seem completely

2181
01:12:04,870 --> 01:12:02,960
unaware they seem bliss in blissful

2182
01:12:07,430 --> 01:12:04,880
ignorance of the mor the magnitude of

2183
01:12:09,590 --> 01:12:07,440
their blunder

2184
01:12:11,270 --> 01:12:09,600
you they the forums were buzz saying

2185
01:12:12,790 --> 01:12:11,280
though this isn't really isn't fair of

2186
01:12:14,550 --> 01:12:12,800
course she's using an earpiece we all

2187
01:12:15,830 --> 01:12:14,560
know that poor paul's end of the daily

2188
01:12:17,350 --> 01:12:15,840
mail had ever you know

2189
01:12:19,430 --> 01:12:17,360
defending paul's end and defending the

2190
01:12:20,790 --> 01:12:19,440
daily mail

2191
01:12:22,870 --> 01:12:20,800
there was there was only one skepta

2192
01:12:23,990 --> 01:12:22,880
cashier who who seemed to get it he was

2193
01:12:25,990 --> 01:12:24,000
i can't remember his name but he wrote

2194
01:12:27,270 --> 01:12:26,000
an article explaining you know this is

2195
01:12:28,790 --> 01:12:27,280
this was this could have been a

2196
01:12:30,630 --> 01:12:28,800
wonderful moment for the skeptic

2197
01:12:32,470 --> 01:12:30,640
movement to expose her the way round the

2198
01:12:34,390 --> 01:12:32,480
exposed pop-off

2199
01:12:37,030 --> 01:12:34,400
but instead they snatched defeat from

2200
01:12:38,310 --> 01:12:37,040
the jaws of victory

2201
01:12:39,750 --> 01:12:38,320
i mean what

2202
01:12:41,030 --> 01:12:39,760
do these people actually understand what

2203
01:12:42,470 --> 01:12:41,040
rep what evidence actually is you're

2204
01:12:43,750 --> 01:12:42,480
going to go to court

2205
01:12:45,430 --> 01:12:43,760
with something like this just imagine

2206
01:12:46,950 --> 01:12:45,440
you went to court and said

2207
01:12:48,390 --> 01:12:46,960
sally morgan's using an earpiece the

2208
01:12:49,910 --> 01:12:48,400
owner says where's your evidence the

2209
01:12:52,070 --> 01:12:49,920
honor his honor the judge where's your

2210
01:12:54,149 --> 01:12:52,080
evidence well your honor we uh we sort

2211
01:12:56,390 --> 01:12:54,159
of occam's razored it and a burden of

2212
01:13:00,470 --> 01:12:56,400
evidence and and which is more likely

2213
01:13:02,630 --> 01:13:00,480
and onus owners owners owners

2214
01:13:04,390 --> 01:13:02,640
taste dismissed

2215
01:13:07,110 --> 01:13:04,400
remember skeptics

2216
01:13:11,189 --> 01:13:07,120
ordinary claims require ordinary

2217
01:13:14,870 --> 01:13:13,189
now this mick west i'm sure you've heard

2218
01:13:17,189 --> 01:13:14,880
of this anyone in ufo circles would know

2219
01:13:19,030 --> 01:13:17,199
about mick west just a bit small there

2220
01:13:20,630 --> 01:13:19,040
but um that is the guy i showed you

2221
01:13:22,630 --> 01:13:20,640
earlier now he runs something called

2222
01:13:23,910 --> 01:13:22,640
metabunk.org which is a general sort of

2223
01:13:26,470 --> 01:13:23,920
skeptic

2224
01:13:28,229 --> 01:13:26,480
thing but he's become very very vocal

2225
01:13:30,310 --> 01:13:28,239
since 2017

2226
01:13:31,590 --> 01:13:30,320
because the arrival of what i call new

2227
01:13:33,830 --> 01:13:31,600
ufology

2228
01:13:35,189 --> 01:13:33,840
has galvanized this guy and i've been

2229
01:13:36,950 --> 01:13:35,199
looking at all the things he's been

2230
01:13:38,070 --> 01:13:36,960
saying now um

2231
01:13:40,470 --> 01:13:38,080
if you want to mean if you want to know

2232
01:13:42,470 --> 01:13:40,480
what i mean by new ufology

2233
01:13:45,110 --> 01:13:42,480
basically anyone who says uap instead of

2234
01:13:46,310 --> 01:13:45,120
ufo is a new ufologist they just watch

2235
01:13:49,750 --> 01:13:46,320
it's what's emerged out of the whole

2236
01:13:52,070 --> 01:13:49,760
2017 eight tip ttsa stuff

2237
01:13:55,669 --> 01:13:52,080
and he's a he's a very very staunch

2238
01:13:58,790 --> 01:13:57,510
and he's completely wrong about all

2239
01:14:01,110 --> 01:13:58,800
kinds of things in the same way that all

2240
01:14:04,149 --> 01:14:01,120
skeptics are wrong

2241
01:14:05,030 --> 01:14:04,159
he says david fravor saw seagulls

2242
01:14:06,709 --> 01:14:05,040
um

2243
01:14:08,390 --> 01:14:06,719
he saw a reflection in the cockpit

2244
01:14:09,430 --> 01:14:08,400
camera he was aircraft and things like

2245
01:14:12,870 --> 01:14:09,440
this

2246
01:14:15,350 --> 01:14:12,880
clown's day off fallacy

2247
01:14:17,910 --> 01:14:15,360
he said well they say well mick what did

2248
01:14:19,189 --> 01:14:17,920
you say he saw seagulls he's a pilot

2249
01:14:21,430 --> 01:14:19,199
you may have seen it mick says oh he

2250
01:14:23,030 --> 01:14:21,440
mace in an airliner oh my god i'm never

2251
01:14:25,350 --> 01:14:23,040
gonna fly again

2252
01:14:26,790 --> 01:14:25,360
if a fully armed fighter jet can't tell

2253
01:14:28,790 --> 01:14:26,800
the difference between an airliner and

2254
01:14:30,310 --> 01:14:28,800
anything else you know i don't want to

2255
01:14:32,149 --> 01:14:30,320
go on an airliner

2256
01:14:33,430 --> 01:14:32,159
and the whole cockpit canopy thing was

2257
01:14:35,510 --> 01:14:33,440
he said that the tic tac was a

2258
01:14:37,910 --> 01:14:35,520
reflection in the cockpit canopy

2259
01:14:39,430 --> 01:14:37,920
again this this is the clown's day off

2260
01:14:41,110 --> 01:14:39,440
fallacy because he's just making that up

2261
01:14:42,709 --> 01:14:41,120
he doesn't know it he's just

2262
01:14:44,229 --> 01:14:42,719
he's just conjuring it up off the top of

2263
01:14:45,910 --> 01:14:44,239
his head

2264
01:14:47,830 --> 01:14:45,920
he interviews people on both sides of

2265
01:14:49,990 --> 01:14:47,840
the argument this guy's this guy is

2266
01:14:54,310 --> 01:14:50,000
different from a lot of skeptics

2267
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:55,590
well he's not that he's not different

2268
01:14:59,669 --> 01:14:57,520
from all of them to be fair he's like i

2269
01:15:01,189 --> 01:14:59,679
mentioned dave allen green chris french

2270
01:15:03,110 --> 01:15:01,199
he's um

2271
01:15:05,270 --> 01:15:03,120
he's a sort of guy i could sit down and

2272
01:15:07,270 --> 01:15:05,280
i could have a discussion with him you

2273
01:15:08,950 --> 01:15:07,280
know i could go to the partner right now

2274
01:15:12,310 --> 01:15:08,960
i could have a point with him have a

2275
01:15:13,990 --> 01:15:12,320
point a lager and talk about

2276
01:15:17,030 --> 01:15:14,000
and talk about things you know

2277
01:15:18,470 --> 01:15:17,040
and i think he'd be civil he is actually

2278
01:15:19,990 --> 01:15:18,480
respectful

2279
01:15:22,470 --> 01:15:20,000
i think he's wrong

2280
01:15:23,590 --> 01:15:22,480
but he's respectful he interviews people

2281
01:15:25,510 --> 01:15:23,600
who don't agree with him he had some

2282
01:15:28,709 --> 01:15:25,520
very interesting interviews with uh

2283
01:15:30,630 --> 01:15:28,719
ufo jesus do you know the guy i mean um

2284
01:15:34,950 --> 01:15:30,640
post-disclosure world are you youtuber

2285
01:15:37,990 --> 01:15:36,870
now this is michael sherman this is a

2286
01:15:40,550 --> 01:15:38,000
very interesting chat because this is

2287
01:15:42,390 --> 01:15:40,560
one of the rock stars he's an american

2288
01:15:45,030 --> 01:15:42,400
but he's like the chris french guy he's

2289
01:15:47,030 --> 01:15:45,040
like he's the renter skeptic which is a

2290
01:15:49,430 --> 01:15:47,040
quote from another pop skeptic

2291
01:15:51,270 --> 01:15:49,440
he is the uh the guy you said you call

2292
01:15:52,390 --> 01:15:51,280
up whenever you have a

2293
01:15:53,669 --> 01:15:52,400
something in the media if you're

2294
01:15:55,830 --> 01:15:53,679
american this is the guy you'll probably

2295
01:15:58,229 --> 01:15:55,840
call up he's written book he books like

2296
01:16:00,630 --> 01:15:58,239
the skeptic's encyclopedia why do people

2297
01:16:01,830 --> 01:16:00,640
believe crazy things

2298
01:16:03,350 --> 01:16:01,840
and um

2299
01:16:05,590 --> 01:16:03,360
and other things like that he's a very

2300
01:16:07,430 --> 01:16:05,600
very die-hard skeptic now his background

2301
01:16:09,189 --> 01:16:07,440
is very interesting and

2302
01:16:11,350 --> 01:16:09,199
his story in the last few years has

2303
01:16:12,790 --> 01:16:11,360
become even more interesting

2304
01:16:15,830 --> 01:16:12,800
what he did was you see he used to be a

2305
01:16:18,310 --> 01:16:15,840
long distance cycle racer and um one day

2306
01:16:20,070 --> 01:16:18,320
he was riding along very tired

2307
01:16:21,910 --> 01:16:20,080
because uh it's very it's an exhausting

2308
01:16:23,270 --> 01:16:21,920
sport long long distance cycle racing is

2309
01:16:25,990 --> 01:16:23,280
very exhausting

2310
01:16:28,470 --> 01:16:26,000
and he had a hallucination he had a

2311
01:16:30,950 --> 01:16:28,480
a altered state of consciousness

2312
01:16:32,790 --> 01:16:30,960
and he which involved manifestations and

2313
01:16:34,550 --> 01:16:32,800
everything

2314
01:16:36,950 --> 01:16:34,560
and he

2315
01:16:39,189 --> 01:16:36,960
unlike many many people unlike uh other

2316
01:16:41,430 --> 01:16:39,199
people i'm going to speak about tonight

2317
01:16:43,590 --> 01:16:41,440
he he didn't start off believing it all

2318
01:16:45,910 --> 01:16:43,600
to be real he didn't he's a lot of them

2319
01:16:47,430 --> 01:16:45,920
start off believing that this is like a

2320
01:16:49,510 --> 01:16:47,440
real experience they're really seeing

2321
01:16:52,149 --> 01:16:49,520
other worlds and other entities and you

2322
01:16:53,669 --> 01:16:52,159
know these angels and things like that

2323
01:16:54,790 --> 01:16:53,679
and then they become a skeptic later he

2324
01:16:56,550 --> 01:16:54,800
didn't do that he started off

2325
01:16:58,790 --> 01:16:56,560
immediately and in

2326
01:17:00,149 --> 01:16:58,800
his view understanding that what he saw

2327
01:17:02,229 --> 01:17:00,159
wasn't real it was just a trick of his

2328
01:17:03,430 --> 01:17:02,239
brain because basically it's caused by

2329
01:17:04,790 --> 01:17:03,440
exhaustion

2330
01:17:06,790 --> 01:17:04,800
and hyperventilation because he was

2331
01:17:08,310 --> 01:17:06,800
cycling a long distance

2332
01:17:09,990 --> 01:17:08,320
so he became a psychologist to try and

2333
01:17:11,510 --> 01:17:10,000
work out why these things happen why do

2334
01:17:13,350 --> 01:17:11,520
people see these sorts of things and he

2335
01:17:14,950 --> 01:17:13,360
went on to found to become the editor of

2336
01:17:16,550 --> 01:17:14,960
skeptic magazine he does all kinds of

2337
01:17:18,070 --> 01:17:16,560
other skeptic things he organizes a

2338
01:17:19,750 --> 01:17:18,080
skeptic conference

2339
01:17:21,990 --> 01:17:19,760
uh he's very much like say this rock

2340
01:17:23,350 --> 01:17:22,000
star kind of person

2341
01:17:24,630 --> 01:17:23,360
now um

2342
01:17:26,709 --> 01:17:24,640
over the last few years something very

2343
01:17:29,350 --> 01:17:26,719
interesting has happened firstly

2344
01:17:31,030 --> 01:17:29,360
a lot of the skeptics turned against him

2345
01:17:32,550 --> 01:17:31,040
because there was a lot of there's a

2346
01:17:34,470 --> 01:17:32,560
factional fight that's broken out in the

2347
01:17:35,750 --> 01:17:34,480
skeptic movement several actually which

2348
01:17:37,669 --> 01:17:35,760
i talked about in the longer version of

2349
01:17:39,110 --> 01:17:37,679
this lecture

2350
01:17:41,750 --> 01:17:39,120
and he became the target of a lot of

2351
01:17:43,350 --> 01:17:41,760
abuse from the skeptic thug element

2352
01:17:45,510 --> 01:17:43,360
but also

2353
01:17:47,830 --> 01:17:45,520
even this was after that happened so you

2354
01:17:49,510 --> 01:17:47,840
can't just blame it on that

2355
01:17:51,110 --> 01:17:49,520
after that happened he posted something

2356
01:17:52,470 --> 01:17:51,120
on his website which is really amazing i

2357
01:17:54,070 --> 01:17:52,480
mean his website's not very interesting

2358
01:17:55,430 --> 01:17:54,080
michael sherman.com he just publishes

2359
01:17:57,590 --> 01:17:55,440
links to his

2360
01:17:59,350 --> 01:17:57,600
scientific american articles

2361
01:18:00,790 --> 01:17:59,360
we published an article saying i'm

2362
01:18:01,669 --> 01:18:00,800
paraphrasing i can't remember the exact

2363
01:18:03,430 --> 01:18:01,679
quote

2364
01:18:05,750 --> 01:18:03,440
i just had an experience which rocked me

2365
01:18:07,910 --> 01:18:05,760
back on my heels it shook my skepticism

2366
01:18:09,590 --> 01:18:07,920
to its core

2367
01:18:11,510 --> 01:18:09,600
we should never allow we should never

2368
01:18:13,270 --> 01:18:11,520
close our minds to the mysterious and

2369
01:18:15,350 --> 01:18:13,280
magnificent regardless of their causal

2370
01:18:17,030 --> 01:18:15,360
nature

2371
01:18:18,149 --> 01:18:17,040
what a remarkable thing for a skeptic to

2372
01:18:19,590 --> 01:18:18,159
say

2373
01:18:23,030 --> 01:18:19,600
and indeed this caused a little bit of a

2374
01:18:24,229 --> 01:18:23,040
stir in the skeptic forum world

2375
01:18:26,790 --> 01:18:24,239
they thought what's happening here

2376
01:18:28,630 --> 01:18:26,800
what's mike what's he talking about

2377
01:18:30,390 --> 01:18:28,640
and he's he went on say if i had heard

2378
01:18:32,630 --> 01:18:30,400
this story from other people i wouldn't

2379
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:32,640
have believed it and she he has heard it

2380
01:18:36,149 --> 01:18:34,080
from other people he's not believed it

2381
01:18:39,270 --> 01:18:36,159
the story was this he got married to a

2382
01:18:40,950 --> 01:18:39,280
woman called jennifer a german lady

2383
01:18:42,470 --> 01:18:40,960
and they got married in his home in

2384
01:18:44,229 --> 01:18:42,480
california usa

2385
01:18:46,229 --> 01:18:44,239
and they had all of she moved over from

2386
01:18:48,950 --> 01:18:46,239
germany to live with him there

2387
01:18:50,870 --> 01:18:48,960
and brought all his belongings

2388
01:18:53,590 --> 01:18:50,880
all her belongings with her was shipped

2389
01:18:55,910 --> 01:18:53,600
over including an old-fashioned radio a

2390
01:18:57,590 --> 01:18:55,920
1978 phillips transistor radio didn't

2391
01:18:59,830 --> 01:18:57,600
work but she kept it for sentimental

2392
01:19:01,270 --> 01:18:59,840
reasons because it belongs to her father

2393
01:19:03,110 --> 01:19:01,280
who died

2394
01:19:04,470 --> 01:19:03,120
hadn't worked for anybody years and

2395
01:19:06,229 --> 01:19:04,480
hadn't worked at all

2396
01:19:07,590 --> 01:19:06,239
so sherman said maybe i can get this to

2397
01:19:09,270 --> 01:19:07,600
work so he

2398
01:19:11,510 --> 01:19:09,280
he put his screwdriver and started

2399
01:19:13,430 --> 01:19:11,520
fiddling it fiddling with his inside you

2400
01:19:14,790 --> 01:19:13,440
know breaking occam's razor in that

2401
01:19:16,550 --> 01:19:14,800
respect

2402
01:19:18,149 --> 01:19:16,560
he couldn't get it to work so he shoved

2403
01:19:19,110 --> 01:19:18,159
it into his desk drawing his study and

2404
01:19:22,070 --> 01:19:19,120
left it

2405
01:19:23,750 --> 01:19:22,080
to throw it away because his wife wanted

2406
01:19:25,270 --> 01:19:23,760
to keep it for that reason because her

2407
01:19:27,350 --> 01:19:25,280
dad was dead

2408
01:19:28,790 --> 01:19:27,360
then the wedding began in his home in in

2409
01:19:30,149 --> 01:19:28,800
the us you can get married in your own

2410
01:19:31,750 --> 01:19:30,159
home

2411
01:19:34,470 --> 01:19:31,760
and there's not the not the vicar

2412
01:19:36,229 --> 01:19:34,480
because he's an atheist the celebrant

2413
01:19:37,750 --> 01:19:36,239
was they were just exchanging vows with

2414
01:19:39,189 --> 01:19:37,760
the celebrant with all their friends and

2415
01:19:41,590 --> 01:19:39,199
family around them

2416
01:19:43,510 --> 01:19:41,600
and suddenly the sound of music breaks

2417
01:19:45,669 --> 01:19:43,520
out in the room

2418
01:19:47,110 --> 01:19:45,679
sherman goes oh my god some buggers gone

2419
01:19:48,709 --> 01:19:47,120
and left their mobile phone on haven't

2420
01:19:50,390 --> 01:19:48,719
they see what usually happens with these

2421
01:19:53,430 --> 01:19:50,400
sort of things he looks around angrily

2422
01:19:55,270 --> 01:19:53,440
everyone goes not me mine's switched off

2423
01:19:57,270 --> 01:19:55,280
but the music is coming from upstairs he

2424
01:19:59,110 --> 01:19:57,280
goes upstairs the music is coming from

2425
01:20:00,470 --> 01:19:59,120
his study he goes into the study the

2426
01:20:01,430 --> 01:20:00,480
music is coming from the draw in the

2427
01:20:03,910 --> 01:20:01,440
desk

2428
01:20:05,590 --> 01:20:03,920
he opens it up and this old philips

2429
01:20:07,510 --> 01:20:05,600
transistor radio

2430
01:20:08,950 --> 01:20:07,520
is playing music

2431
01:20:11,830 --> 01:20:08,960
it's not just playing any song either

2432
01:20:13,590 --> 01:20:11,840
it's playing a song that jennifer's dad

2433
01:20:14,709 --> 01:20:13,600
particularly liked

2434
01:20:17,030 --> 01:20:14,719
and it was a song that was not

2435
01:20:18,790 --> 01:20:17,040
broadcasting on any local radio station

2436
01:20:21,430 --> 01:20:18,800
indeed modern radio stations are all

2437
01:20:22,629 --> 01:20:21,440
digital now uh you know analog uh this

2438
01:20:25,189 --> 01:20:22,639
is an old analog radio it wouldn't

2439
01:20:26,790 --> 01:20:25,199
picked it up anyway

2440
01:20:28,229 --> 01:20:26,800
and jennifer it happened just as they

2441
01:20:30,470 --> 01:20:28,239
were exchanging vows and jennifer was

2442
01:20:32,070 --> 01:20:30,480
just thinking

2443
01:20:34,870 --> 01:20:32,080
wouldn't it be lovely if my dad was here

2444
01:20:37,590 --> 01:20:34,880
i wish he was here

2445
01:20:40,310 --> 01:20:37,600
how about that eh

2446
01:20:42,550 --> 01:20:40,320
and um so is

2447
01:20:43,910 --> 01:20:42,560
is michael sherma about to fall off the

2448
01:20:46,550 --> 01:20:43,920
skeptic wagon

2449
01:20:48,629 --> 01:20:46,560
is he about to cross the aisle if he

2450
01:20:50,070 --> 01:20:48,639
does then he'll get a lot of abuse

2451
01:20:51,590 --> 01:20:50,080
because the skeptics don't take kindly

2452
01:20:52,629 --> 01:20:51,600
to such a high level defection they

2453
01:20:54,149 --> 01:20:52,639
really won't

2454
01:20:55,590 --> 01:20:54,159
so i kept a very close eye on this guy

2455
01:20:56,950 --> 01:20:55,600
this is a few years ago this happened i

2456
01:20:58,390 --> 01:20:56,960
kept a very close eye on what he was up

2457
01:20:59,830 --> 01:20:58,400
to

2458
01:21:01,910 --> 01:20:59,840
nothing happened for a while this this

2459
01:21:03,910 --> 01:21:01,920
often happens um he just carried on

2460
01:21:05,510 --> 01:21:03,920
walking down skeptic avenue for a while

2461
01:21:06,229 --> 01:21:05,520
brushing himself off and just carrying

2462
01:21:08,709 --> 01:21:06,239
on

2463
01:21:10,629 --> 01:21:08,719
and that you know these sort of road to

2464
01:21:13,030 --> 01:21:10,639
damascus experiences

2465
01:21:14,149 --> 01:21:13,040
are actually quite rare

2466
01:21:15,830 --> 01:21:14,159
you don't you know you don't know you

2467
01:21:17,270 --> 01:21:15,840
don't get them all the time usually what

2468
01:21:19,030 --> 01:21:17,280
happens is seeds are planted you know

2469
01:21:20,709 --> 01:21:19,040
that phrase seeds let's plant the seeds

2470
01:21:21,990 --> 01:21:20,719
let them grow

2471
01:21:23,669 --> 01:21:22,000
and

2472
01:21:25,189 --> 01:21:23,679
so i i thought to myself even though

2473
01:21:26,950 --> 01:21:25,199
he's just carrying on as normal being a

2474
01:21:28,950 --> 01:21:26,960
skeptic

2475
01:21:31,030 --> 01:21:28,960
he may he may have had an experience he

2476
01:21:33,030 --> 01:21:31,040
may got something in that experience

2477
01:21:34,870 --> 01:21:33,040
which will eventually mature and bloom

2478
01:21:37,830 --> 01:21:34,880
within him and cause him to change his

2479
01:21:41,750 --> 01:21:39,350
and then he appears on the joe rogan

2480
01:21:44,149 --> 01:21:41,760
show with graham hancock

2481
01:21:45,189 --> 01:21:44,159
this is more recent the first um

2482
01:21:47,590 --> 01:21:45,199
the first time that it's very

2483
01:21:50,390 --> 01:21:47,600
belligerent they were arguing then he

2484
01:21:52,149 --> 01:21:50,400
appears again and he's uh they graham

2485
01:21:55,350 --> 01:21:52,159
hancock of course is like one of these

2486
01:21:56,709 --> 01:21:55,360
he's a spiritual person

2487
01:21:58,550 --> 01:21:56,719
they get on very well now i found out

2488
01:22:00,470 --> 01:21:58,560
that here sherman and graham hancock are

2489
01:22:02,070 --> 01:22:00,480
now good friends

2490
01:22:03,430 --> 01:22:02,080
and graham hancock is trying to persuade

2491
01:22:05,750 --> 01:22:03,440
sherman to take ayahuasca in the

2492
01:22:07,030 --> 01:22:05,760
brazilian jungle like he did

2493
01:22:08,310 --> 01:22:07,040
do you know that you remember that about

2494
01:22:10,310 --> 01:22:08,320
how he um

2495
01:22:11,350 --> 01:22:10,320
graham hancock took this psychoactive

2496
01:22:13,030 --> 01:22:11,360
drug

2497
01:22:14,390 --> 01:22:13,040
um

2498
01:22:16,149 --> 01:22:14,400
i think we may be about to see the

2499
01:22:17,030 --> 01:22:16,159
fruits of sherbert's experience here and

2500
01:22:22,709 --> 01:22:17,040
we

2501
01:22:25,270 --> 01:22:22,719
think because skeptics do change their

2502
01:22:27,030 --> 01:22:25,280
minds skeptics do come over to our side

2503
01:22:28,709 --> 01:22:27,040
indeed sometimes people on our side go

2504
01:22:29,750 --> 01:22:28,719
over to them i mean they both make

2505
01:22:31,990 --> 01:22:29,760
converts from each other i'm going to

2506
01:22:33,990 --> 01:22:32,000
discuss a character in a mission in a

2507
01:22:35,990 --> 01:22:34,000
little while who is one of those people

2508
01:22:37,590 --> 01:22:36,000
who went over from our side to them but

2509
01:22:39,669 --> 01:22:37,600
so both sides make converse from each

2510
01:22:41,590 --> 01:22:39,679
other they sort of pass each other

2511
01:22:42,870 --> 01:22:41,600
in opposite directions

2512
01:22:44,629 --> 01:22:42,880
and this is who i'm talking about susan

2513
01:22:47,030 --> 01:22:44,639
blackmore

2514
01:22:49,750 --> 01:22:47,040
yes you've heard of her it's

2515
01:22:52,470 --> 01:22:49,760
she is like uh she was rent a skeptic

2516
01:22:53,910 --> 01:22:52,480
and um indeed

2517
01:22:55,510 --> 01:22:53,920
she calls herself that she coined the

2518
01:22:57,110 --> 01:22:55,520
phrase rent a skeptic as a sort of

2519
01:22:58,470 --> 01:22:57,120
self-deprecating joke but that's what

2520
01:23:00,229 --> 01:22:58,480
she was

2521
01:23:02,790 --> 01:23:00,239
whenever this is a british british lady

2522
01:23:05,270 --> 01:23:02,800
whenever she was on tv

2523
01:23:07,270 --> 01:23:05,280
because

2524
01:23:09,270 --> 01:23:07,280
one of you one of us was in there when

2525
01:23:10,550 --> 01:23:09,280
it was in in the studio

2526
01:23:12,790 --> 01:23:10,560
it's possible because you guys are in

2527
01:23:14,550 --> 01:23:12,800
the media a lot here emily steve you're

2528
01:23:16,229 --> 01:23:14,560
in the media a lot you may you may well

2529
01:23:17,990 --> 01:23:16,239
have bumped into her if at some point i

2530
01:23:19,430 --> 01:23:18,000
don't know if you did but

2531
01:23:20,950 --> 01:23:19,440
she was always brought in to provide

2532
01:23:23,990 --> 01:23:20,960
balance before the skeptic side of the

2533
01:23:26,870 --> 01:23:24,000
story interesting thing though was

2534
01:23:27,990 --> 01:23:26,880
she was like a a real new age spiritual

2535
01:23:29,750 --> 01:23:28,000
person

2536
01:23:32,070 --> 01:23:29,760
for a long time what happened was this

2537
01:23:33,750 --> 01:23:32,080
interesting story in 1970 she was at

2538
01:23:36,149 --> 01:23:33,760
saint hilda's college in oxford it's a

2539
01:23:37,910 --> 01:23:36,159
women's college in in oxford and she was

2540
01:23:39,830 --> 01:23:37,920
doing what students do getting partying

2541
01:23:41,510 --> 01:23:39,840
getting drunk taking drugs well i don't

2542
01:23:43,110 --> 01:23:41,520
know exactly what drug it took she took

2543
01:23:46,149 --> 01:23:43,120
but she reports that it gave her the

2544
01:23:48,709 --> 01:23:46,159
most incredible trip imaginable

2545
01:23:50,390 --> 01:23:48,719
and it changed her life she she was

2546
01:23:52,470 --> 01:23:50,400
absolutely certain this experience she'd

2547
01:23:54,229 --> 01:23:52,480
have had under the influence of the drug

2548
01:23:56,310 --> 01:23:54,239
was real

2549
01:23:57,669 --> 01:23:56,320
and it she she said that she's just

2550
01:23:59,430 --> 01:23:57,679
dropped whatever she was doing she

2551
01:24:00,229 --> 01:23:59,440
stopped she switched the courses she was

2552
01:24:02,390 --> 01:24:00,239
on

2553
01:24:03,830 --> 01:24:02,400
and she immediately said i i need to be

2554
01:24:05,110 --> 01:24:03,840
able to prove this i don't i can't know

2555
01:24:07,030 --> 01:24:05,120
what course she was on something else

2556
01:24:09,350 --> 01:24:07,040
but she immediately went and enrolled in

2557
01:24:10,550 --> 01:24:09,360
a parapsychology course

2558
01:24:11,669 --> 01:24:10,560
i've got to prove this i've got to i

2559
01:24:12,550 --> 01:24:11,679
know what's real but i've got to prove

2560
01:24:14,149 --> 01:24:12,560
it

2561
01:24:18,070 --> 01:24:14,159
well she kept she kept doing this for a

2562
01:24:20,070 --> 01:24:18,080
while then in 1979 dr dr carl sargent

2563
01:24:22,390 --> 01:24:20,080
came on the scene after carl sargent he

2564
01:24:23,669 --> 01:24:22,400
was doing these um

2565
01:24:25,350 --> 01:24:23,679
he was doing these experiments because

2566
01:24:28,070 --> 01:24:25,360
susan blackmore always thought that uh

2567
01:24:29,750 --> 01:24:28,080
psy was the best way of dealing with

2568
01:24:32,149 --> 01:24:29,760
getting the evidence she needed psi is

2569
01:24:33,590 --> 01:24:32,159
like a laboratory investigation of a

2570
01:24:35,669 --> 01:24:33,600
psychic phenomena

2571
01:24:38,229 --> 01:24:35,679
and uh you know mind mind powers and

2572
01:24:40,470 --> 01:24:38,239
things like that and he was um

2573
01:24:41,990 --> 01:24:40,480
he was using the gansfeld test now

2574
01:24:44,149 --> 01:24:42,000
ganzfeld is where

2575
01:24:45,910 --> 01:24:44,159
people try to transmit thoughts from one

2576
01:24:47,830 --> 01:24:45,920
room to another where they cut the two

2577
01:24:49,830 --> 01:24:47,840
people are no contact if you've seen

2578
01:24:51,590 --> 01:24:49,840
people lying around with golf balls over

2579
01:24:53,750 --> 01:24:51,600
their eyes in red light that's that's

2580
01:24:55,430 --> 01:24:53,760
the gansfeld experiment

2581
01:24:57,590 --> 01:24:55,440
and sergeant was getting these amazing

2582
01:24:59,750 --> 01:24:57,600
results from cambridge at the cambridge

2583
01:25:02,070 --> 01:24:59,760
university for these ganzfeld tests and

2584
01:25:04,390 --> 01:25:02,080
she was susan blackwell was overjoyed

2585
01:25:05,990 --> 01:25:04,400
she thought this is it

2586
01:25:07,430 --> 01:25:06,000
so she phoned up sergeant and she said

2587
01:25:09,430 --> 01:25:07,440
can i come to you can i come and work

2588
01:25:10,870 --> 01:25:09,440
with you can i please please come to

2589
01:25:12,550 --> 01:25:10,880
come to your laboratory and supervise

2590
01:25:14,070 --> 01:25:12,560
you please please let me come to your

2591
01:25:16,229 --> 01:25:14,080
laboratory and supervise you and he said

2592
01:25:18,870 --> 01:25:16,239
yeah sure so she burnt rubber getting up

2593
01:25:20,470 --> 01:25:18,880
to cambridge and um

2594
01:25:22,149 --> 01:25:20,480
and after a while she published a report

2595
01:25:24,070 --> 01:25:22,159
for the journal of the society for

2596
01:25:25,669 --> 01:25:24,080
psychical research

2597
01:25:27,270 --> 01:25:25,679
and you can almost feel the pain in the

2598
01:25:28,470 --> 01:25:27,280
words she writes it's still on her

2599
01:25:29,910 --> 01:25:28,480
website now

2600
01:25:31,669 --> 01:25:29,920
she concluded that sergeant was

2601
01:25:32,950 --> 01:25:31,679
committing scientific fraud

2602
01:25:34,629 --> 01:25:32,960
he was cheating

2603
01:25:36,390 --> 01:25:34,639
he's producing fake data to get the

2604
01:25:37,990 --> 01:25:36,400
wrong results

2605
01:25:42,229 --> 01:25:38,000
and she was very unhappy about this but

2606
01:25:46,390 --> 01:25:44,229
she was called into the office by a head

2607
01:25:48,229 --> 01:25:46,400
of department who said susan

2608
01:25:50,229 --> 01:25:48,239
how dare you accuse a distinguished

2609
01:25:52,870 --> 01:25:50,239
scientist carl sargent

2610
01:25:54,950 --> 01:25:52,880
how dare you accuse her you a mere sort

2611
01:25:57,430 --> 01:25:54,960
of second-rate post-graduate

2612
01:26:00,709 --> 01:25:57,440
accusing the the wonderful carl sergeant

2613
01:26:02,310 --> 01:26:00,719
of fraud who do you think you are

2614
01:26:03,750 --> 01:26:02,320
and um

2615
01:26:05,590 --> 01:26:03,760
as far as she was concerned all she was

2616
01:26:07,430 --> 01:26:05,600
doing was doing her job

2617
01:26:08,790 --> 01:26:07,440
she'd gone up there wanting this to be

2618
01:26:10,709 --> 01:26:08,800
real and found out that it wasn't and

2619
01:26:13,189 --> 01:26:10,719
she'd reported that

2620
01:26:15,430 --> 01:26:13,199
that was her job and she did it

2621
01:26:17,030 --> 01:26:15,440
and she was being reprimanded and

2622
01:26:18,390 --> 01:26:17,040
punished

2623
01:26:20,950 --> 01:26:18,400
for doing what she thought was what she

2624
01:26:23,669 --> 01:26:20,960
was supposed to do the right thing

2625
01:26:26,709 --> 01:26:23,679
this very much upset her and i know

2626
01:26:29,510 --> 01:26:26,719
i know how much it upset her because

2627
01:26:31,270 --> 01:26:29,520
at tam london in 2010 she was on stage

2628
01:26:33,110 --> 01:26:31,280
this wasn't recorded anywhere but she

2629
01:26:34,790 --> 01:26:33,120
burst into tears

2630
01:26:36,470 --> 01:26:34,800
after 30 years

2631
01:26:38,950 --> 01:26:36,480
it hurt her enough that she burst into

2632
01:26:40,870 --> 01:26:38,960
tears on stage

2633
01:26:42,709 --> 01:26:40,880
now uh

2634
01:26:44,310 --> 01:26:42,719
could i play amateur psychologist for a

2635
01:26:45,990 --> 01:26:44,320
moment

2636
01:26:48,310 --> 01:26:46,000
i mean i don't like doing that because

2637
01:26:50,870 --> 01:26:48,320
there's nothing in this world i despise

2638
01:26:53,270 --> 01:26:50,880
more than an amateur psychologist

2639
01:26:54,390 --> 01:26:53,280
except perhaps a professional one

2640
01:26:55,990 --> 01:26:54,400
but um

2641
01:26:58,149 --> 01:26:56,000
if i can play him as a psychologist i

2642
01:26:59,669 --> 01:26:58,159
would say possibly she has an axe to

2643
01:27:02,149 --> 01:26:59,679
grind

2644
01:27:05,110 --> 01:27:02,159
maybe a just one

2645
01:27:06,870 --> 01:27:05,120
she's she is clearly certainly in 2010

2646
01:27:08,790 --> 01:27:06,880
she was act bitter and angry over the

2647
01:27:10,310 --> 01:27:08,800
way she'd been treated

2648
01:27:12,149 --> 01:27:10,320
and this could have influenced the fact

2649
01:27:13,750 --> 01:27:12,159
that a few years after this experience

2650
01:27:15,750 --> 01:27:13,760
she was like she said i was lying in the

2651
01:27:18,149 --> 01:27:15,760
bath one day and suddenly it just came

2652
01:27:19,750 --> 01:27:18,159
to me maybe all this is not true maybe

2653
01:27:21,510 --> 01:27:19,760
there is no paranormal and i've just

2654
01:27:22,550 --> 01:27:21,520
been chasing an illusion for all these

2655
01:27:24,870 --> 01:27:22,560
years

2656
01:27:26,629 --> 01:27:24,880
and so she she became a skeptic and she

2657
01:27:28,629 --> 01:27:26,639
developed a second career as a skeptic

2658
01:27:30,229 --> 01:27:28,639
but is it possible

2659
01:27:32,470 --> 01:27:30,239
what influence didn't happen in that

2660
01:27:34,629 --> 01:27:32,480
influenced her in that way

2661
01:27:36,870 --> 01:27:34,639
may not have been something factual or

2662
01:27:38,950 --> 01:27:36,880
evidential as a part of her research

2663
01:27:41,830 --> 01:27:38,960
but because of the emotional pain she

2664
01:27:44,070 --> 01:27:41,840
felt that the result of this injustice

2665
01:27:45,270 --> 01:27:44,080
that she perceived was was conducted

2666
01:27:46,870 --> 01:27:45,280
against her

2667
01:27:48,550 --> 01:27:46,880
i don't know if carl sergeant was

2668
01:27:50,229 --> 01:27:48,560
cheating he got away with it

2669
01:27:53,350 --> 01:27:50,239
he left science after a while today he

2670
01:27:57,990 --> 01:27:55,590
richard dawkins now this is an

2671
01:28:00,390 --> 01:27:58,000
interesting character this guy is one he

2672
01:28:01,430 --> 01:28:00,400
is the best-selling non-fiction author

2673
01:28:02,870 --> 01:28:01,440
in the world

2674
01:28:04,950 --> 01:28:02,880
his book the god delusion has anyone

2675
01:28:06,070 --> 01:28:04,960
actually read it who's read that you

2676
01:28:08,229 --> 01:28:06,080
know one

2677
01:28:10,790 --> 01:28:08,239
oh brianna you've read it and

2678
01:28:12,790 --> 01:28:10,800
you have as well sir yeah it's um it's

2679
01:28:15,110 --> 01:28:12,800
been translated into dozens of languages

2680
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:15,120
it's found all over the place very very

2681
01:28:18,950 --> 01:28:17,280
influential book indeed

2682
01:28:21,430 --> 01:28:18,960
now what's interesting about this chap

2683
01:28:23,669 --> 01:28:21,440
is that he bridges the gap between

2684
01:28:25,030 --> 01:28:23,679
atheism and skepticism into what it is

2685
01:28:27,189 --> 01:28:25,040
today which essentially is an

2686
01:28:29,910 --> 01:28:27,199
amalgamation of the two movements

2687
01:28:31,830 --> 01:28:29,920
i mean atheism is simply

2688
01:28:34,550 --> 01:28:31,840
it's simply a disbelief in god i mean

2689
01:28:37,030 --> 01:28:34,560
you could you could until dawkins came

2690
01:28:39,910 --> 01:28:37,040
along you could actually be an atheist

2691
01:28:41,669 --> 01:28:39,920
and still believe in like ufos and and

2692
01:28:43,510 --> 01:28:41,679
paranormal things and things like that

2693
01:28:45,669 --> 01:28:43,520
after dawkins you can't

2694
01:28:48,229 --> 01:28:45,679
since dawkins came along you have this

2695
01:28:49,750 --> 01:28:48,239
kind of skeptic milia i mean i um

2696
01:28:51,830 --> 01:28:49,760
i talked to the being about the michael

2697
01:28:53,590 --> 01:28:51,840
barkin's cultic milieu which which

2698
01:28:56,709 --> 01:28:53,600
includes people like us wide-eyed

2699
01:28:58,229 --> 01:28:56,719
tinfoil hatters like like you and me but

2700
01:28:59,910 --> 01:28:58,239
the skeptics have their skeptic milia as

2701
01:29:00,870 --> 01:28:59,920
well and dawkins is

2702
01:29:17,030 --> 01:29:00,880
a

2703
01:29:18,709 --> 01:29:17,040
live

2704
01:29:21,830 --> 01:29:18,719
and he's written um a book called the

2705
01:29:26,790 --> 01:29:24,550
10 out of 10 for bro he's he's he's a

2706
01:29:28,149 --> 01:29:26,800
gutsy man he uses that kind of

2707
01:29:29,430 --> 01:29:28,159
uh interestingly the american publisher

2708
01:29:31,430 --> 01:29:29,440
wouldn't let him use that title and he

2709
01:29:32,629 --> 01:29:31,440
has got a different title in america but

2710
01:29:34,310 --> 01:29:32,639
it's called the dork installation if you

2711
01:29:36,550 --> 01:29:34,320
buy it over here he's written several

2712
01:29:38,550 --> 01:29:36,560
other books the dawkins is god

2713
01:29:40,629 --> 01:29:38,560
was it where dawking went dawkins went

2714
01:29:42,229 --> 01:29:40,639
wrong and things like this now if

2715
01:29:43,990 --> 01:29:42,239
someone writes books about me and saying

2716
01:29:46,070 --> 01:29:44,000
i'm wrong i'll say okay let them let

2717
01:29:48,550 --> 01:29:46,080
them write books saying i'm wrong and

2718
01:29:50,390 --> 01:29:48,560
i'll like discuss this with them

2719
01:29:53,430 --> 01:29:50,400
dawkins didn't do that when when dawkins

2720
01:29:55,669 --> 01:29:53,440
was asked to comment on mcgrath he just

2721
01:29:57,030 --> 01:29:55,679
said this he just said

2722
01:29:58,870 --> 01:29:57,040
he just said oh

2723
01:30:01,189 --> 01:29:58,880
alistair mcgrath has written three books

2724
01:30:05,110 --> 01:30:01,199
with my name in the title never before

2725
01:30:07,030 --> 01:30:05,120
was a dog praised so much by his fleas

2726
01:30:10,149 --> 01:30:07,040
i think that's just so ungenerous it's

2727
01:30:12,229 --> 01:30:10,159
just so just dismissive and

2728
01:30:13,750 --> 01:30:12,239
i think derogatory

2729
01:30:15,430 --> 01:30:13,760
someone writes he writes a book someone

2730
01:30:17,430 --> 01:30:15,440
doesn't agree with him oh my god they

2731
01:30:19,750 --> 01:30:17,440
must be they must be nasty now there

2732
01:30:23,189 --> 01:30:19,760
must be a bad person and he's involved

2733
01:30:25,030 --> 01:30:23,199
with cycop and all the others as well

2734
01:30:26,470 --> 01:30:25,040
oh here we go here we go we got we gotta

2735
01:30:31,350 --> 01:30:26,480
go don't we

2736
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:36,950
yes

2737
01:30:40,550 --> 01:30:38,149
last

2738
01:30:42,709 --> 01:30:40,560
and definitely least

2739
01:30:43,510 --> 01:30:42,719
in this rogues gallery

2740
01:30:47,750 --> 01:30:43,520
of

2741
01:30:49,669 --> 01:30:47,760
cox

2742
01:30:51,669 --> 01:30:49,679
who is this guy this this guy is the

2743
01:30:53,189 --> 01:30:51,679
young apprentice i told you about for

2744
01:30:54,709 --> 01:30:53,199
chris french

2745
01:30:56,950 --> 01:30:54,719
he's the guy he's going to be the mr

2746
01:30:58,149 --> 01:30:56,960
skeptic you call and he's more precise i

2747
01:31:00,629 --> 01:30:58,159
mean i think he's going to play a

2748
01:31:02,070 --> 01:31:00,639
completely new role in the media but as

2749
01:31:03,430 --> 01:31:02,080
i was saying you know mick west is

2750
01:31:05,510 --> 01:31:03,440
someone i could sit down and have a beer

2751
01:31:07,990 --> 01:31:05,520
with if i sat down with this guy the

2752
01:31:09,990 --> 01:31:08,000
beer would go over his head

2753
01:31:12,229 --> 01:31:10,000
he's one of the most unpleasant arrogant

2754
01:31:14,149 --> 01:31:12,239
obnoxious individuals

2755
01:31:16,070 --> 01:31:14,159
in the public sphere today

2756
01:31:17,270 --> 01:31:16,080
he he doesn't he can't get into debates

2757
01:31:19,430 --> 01:31:17,280
with people he appeared on the

2758
01:31:21,030 --> 01:31:19,440
australian program called qi

2759
01:31:23,110 --> 01:31:21,040
and he was just interrupting he was

2760
01:31:24,870 --> 01:31:23,120
insulting he was he was he literally

2761
01:31:26,390 --> 01:31:24,880
threw

2762
01:31:28,709 --> 01:31:26,400
papers at somebody it was he was

2763
01:31:30,149 --> 01:31:28,719
disgraceful there's disgraceful behavior

2764
01:31:31,350 --> 01:31:30,159
but who was where does he come from i

2765
01:31:34,790 --> 01:31:31,360
mean

2766
01:31:36,790 --> 01:31:34,800
according to people who knew him in the

2767
01:31:38,310 --> 01:31:36,800
scientific world before he was famous

2768
01:31:40,470 --> 01:31:38,320
they said he was he was a second-rate

2769
01:31:43,750 --> 01:31:40,480
particle physicist he got like a two he

2770
01:31:45,350 --> 01:31:43,760
got like a a 2-2 degree scraped into a

2771
01:31:46,950 --> 01:31:45,360
job with the with cern at the large

2772
01:31:49,030 --> 01:31:46,960
hadron collider

2773
01:31:51,590 --> 01:31:49,040
but then the bbc did a documentary about

2774
01:31:53,430 --> 01:31:51,600
albert einstein in 2005 the centenary of

2775
01:31:55,590 --> 01:31:53,440
the relativity

2776
01:31:56,790 --> 01:31:55,600
and this guy was on it

2777
01:31:59,350 --> 01:31:56,800
and uh

2778
01:32:01,590 --> 01:31:59,360
what can i say opportunity knocked

2779
01:32:03,510 --> 01:32:01,600
a star was born doesn't matter how much

2780
01:32:04,870 --> 01:32:03,520
he knows about he doesn't matter how

2781
01:32:06,149 --> 01:32:04,880
thanks for coming

2782
01:32:08,790 --> 01:32:06,159
it doesn't matter how much he knows

2783
01:32:10,470 --> 01:32:08,800
about his subject you know he he has

2784
01:32:13,270 --> 01:32:10,480
shiny white teeth

2785
01:32:15,510 --> 01:32:13,280
and silky black hair and a

2786
01:32:17,189 --> 01:32:15,520
and a high-pitched effeminate voice and

2787
01:32:18,709 --> 01:32:17,199
you know and that's that's what gets you

2788
01:32:20,870 --> 01:32:18,719
on tv and of course the ability to

2789
01:32:21,830 --> 01:32:20,880
repeat anything i tell you to repeat

2790
01:32:23,590 --> 01:32:21,840
and

2791
01:32:25,270 --> 01:32:23,600
also um

2792
01:32:27,510 --> 01:32:25,280
i should add

2793
01:32:28,950 --> 01:32:27,520
the things he comments on he he knows

2794
01:32:30,629 --> 01:32:28,960
nothing about anything except particle

2795
01:32:32,070 --> 01:32:30,639
physics i'm sure he knows everything

2796
01:32:33,830 --> 01:32:32,080
loads of things about particle physics

2797
01:32:35,110 --> 01:32:33,840
that i couldn't learn in every lunchtime

2798
01:32:36,310 --> 01:32:35,120
i had

2799
01:32:38,070 --> 01:32:36,320
but this guy

2800
01:32:39,590 --> 01:32:38,080
he comments on everything else he knows

2801
01:32:41,590 --> 01:32:39,600
nothing about

2802
01:32:43,750 --> 01:32:41,600
david attenborough famous uh famous

2803
01:32:45,430 --> 01:32:43,760
naturalist on tv the guy used to sit in

2804
01:32:49,430 --> 01:32:45,440
the jungle with gorillas

2805
01:32:53,030 --> 01:32:49,440
famous guy he's appointed cox cox

2806
01:32:56,390 --> 01:32:54,790
i mean that's uh

2807
01:32:58,470 --> 01:32:56,400
why why not a biologist this guy's a

2808
01:32:59,910 --> 01:32:58,480
particle physicist why not a biologist

2809
01:33:02,950 --> 01:32:59,920
how am i doing for times what's the time

2810
01:33:06,950 --> 01:33:04,470
i better get a move on i'll get a move

2811
01:33:09,270 --> 01:33:06,960
on sorry guys

2812
01:33:11,430 --> 01:33:09,280
now the skeptocracy

2813
01:33:13,270 --> 01:33:11,440
ruled by skepticism

2814
01:33:15,990 --> 01:33:13,280
now as you may think well skeptics are

2815
01:33:20,870 --> 01:33:16,000
into free speech human rights

2816
01:33:25,510 --> 01:33:23,110
who know who's heard of this ted gates

2817
01:33:28,229 --> 01:33:25,520
graham hancock and rupert sheldrake they

2818
01:33:29,669 --> 01:33:28,239
appeared on a tedx white chapel

2819
01:33:31,430 --> 01:33:29,679
now um

2820
01:33:32,790 --> 01:33:31,440
they had a they basically did their talk

2821
01:33:35,910 --> 01:33:32,800
about um

2822
01:33:37,590 --> 01:33:35,920
about spiritual spiritual matters

2823
01:33:39,030 --> 01:33:37,600
um states of consciousness and things

2824
01:33:41,750 --> 01:33:39,040
like this

2825
01:33:43,669 --> 01:33:41,760
and um tedx deleted they ted to the tedx

2826
01:33:45,750 --> 01:33:43,679
youtube channel they deleted the videos

2827
01:33:47,590 --> 01:33:45,760
they deleted the videos they just said

2828
01:33:49,110 --> 01:33:47,600
even though here we at tedx believe in

2829
01:33:50,709 --> 01:33:49,120
free expression

2830
01:33:53,350 --> 01:33:50,719
we believe that we understand that the

2831
01:33:54,790 --> 01:33:53,360
opinions of those they are those of the

2832
01:33:57,189 --> 01:33:54,800
speakers are not necessarily those of

2833
01:33:58,390 --> 01:33:57,199
dedex or tedx white chapel

2834
01:34:00,390 --> 01:33:58,400
we nevertheless feel we have a

2835
01:34:01,990 --> 01:34:00,400
responsibility to our viewers and to our

2836
01:34:03,830 --> 01:34:02,000
scientific community

2837
01:34:05,350 --> 01:34:03,840
when those speakers wander too far into

2838
01:34:08,070 --> 01:34:05,360
the realms of pseudoscience and

2839
01:34:10,149 --> 01:34:08,080
speculation so therefore we have removed

2840
01:34:12,149 --> 01:34:10,159
these videos and intend to place them in

2841
01:34:13,830 --> 01:34:12,159
a location where their factual issues

2842
01:34:16,070 --> 01:34:13,840
could be better dealt with

2843
01:34:17,510 --> 01:34:16,080
what they did was they they put them as

2844
01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:17,520
rupert sheldrake said they put them in

2845
01:34:19,990 --> 01:34:18,960
the naughty corner

2846
01:34:21,910 --> 01:34:20,000
now this is something called ted

2847
01:34:23,430 --> 01:34:21,920
controversies which is another youtube

2848
01:34:25,189 --> 01:34:23,440
channel which is apparently for things

2849
01:34:26,629 --> 01:34:25,199
like that same they didn't they didn't

2850
01:34:28,550 --> 01:34:26,639
send to them you understand they just

2851
01:34:30,310 --> 01:34:28,560
moved them to this new youtube channel

2852
01:34:32,310 --> 01:34:30,320
but it's a youtube channel that has a

2853
01:34:33,750 --> 01:34:32,320
fraction of the subscribers funnily

2854
01:34:37,270 --> 01:34:33,760
enough it was a youtube channel it was

2855
01:34:39,910 --> 01:34:37,280
actually set up after they deleted

2856
01:34:41,590 --> 01:34:39,920
hancock and sheldrake from the main tedx

2857
01:34:43,430 --> 01:34:41,600
channel

2858
01:34:44,950 --> 01:34:43,440
and um

2859
01:34:46,390 --> 01:34:44,960
even older

2860
01:34:48,390 --> 01:34:46,400
there's only two videos on it and it's

2861
01:34:50,310 --> 01:34:48,400
those two

2862
01:34:51,990 --> 01:34:50,320
so but luckily they've gone viral now

2863
01:34:53,510 --> 01:34:52,000
and they're all over the place but it

2864
01:34:54,870 --> 01:34:53,520
just goes to show you know that skeptics

2865
01:34:56,070 --> 01:34:54,880
often talk about the free exchange of

2866
01:34:57,750 --> 01:34:56,080
information and things like that but

2867
01:34:59,669 --> 01:34:57,760
they don't actually believe it

2868
01:35:00,950 --> 01:34:59,679
this is a very this this motley crue is

2869
01:35:03,270 --> 01:35:00,960
very interesting

2870
01:35:05,030 --> 01:35:03,280
there this these people here that's a g

2871
01:35:06,070 --> 01:35:05,040
jamie ian swiss on the far right there's

2872
01:35:08,709 --> 01:35:06,080
a couple of other people there and

2873
01:35:10,790 --> 01:35:08,719
there's steve novella on the far left

2874
01:35:13,590 --> 01:35:10,800
um now he's he has a good name because

2875
01:35:15,430 --> 01:35:13,600
he tells a tall story and um i'm just

2876
01:35:16,950 --> 01:35:15,440
going to play you a little audio

2877
01:35:18,149 --> 01:35:16,960
which should come through that speaker

2878
01:35:19,350 --> 01:35:18,159
there

2879
01:35:21,510 --> 01:35:19,360
which um

2880
01:35:23,030 --> 01:35:21,520
i think i think this is this thing this

2881
01:35:24,149 --> 01:35:23,040
illuminates that

2882
01:35:28,070 --> 01:35:24,159
this

2883
01:35:29,669 --> 01:35:28,080
absolute blindness to their own nature

2884
01:35:30,790 --> 01:35:29,679
that the skeptics

2885
01:35:32,390 --> 01:35:30,800
display

2886
01:35:37,830 --> 01:35:32,400
have a listen to this see i'll show you

2887
01:35:42,950 --> 01:35:40,870
so i guess the goal then is to

2888
01:35:45,030 --> 01:35:42,960
really teach them to be critical

2889
01:35:48,070 --> 01:35:45,040
thinkers and let religion take care of

2890
01:35:50,070 --> 01:35:48,080
itself i think yeah i think it would but

2891
01:35:50,950 --> 01:35:50,080
you know it's always a risk and you know

2892
01:35:53,830 --> 01:35:50,960
i do

2893
01:35:55,910 --> 01:35:53,840
one um secular humanist parent

2894
01:35:58,070 --> 01:35:55,920
told me that they basically took the

2895
01:35:59,189 --> 01:35:58,080
approach of what you just said teach

2896
01:36:00,790 --> 01:35:59,199
them to be critical thinkers but

2897
01:36:03,270 --> 01:36:00,800
basically say nothing about religion and

2898
01:36:04,470 --> 01:36:03,280
then their children will grow up and

2899
01:36:06,470 --> 01:36:04,480
make up their own mind which they're

2900
01:36:07,830 --> 01:36:06,480
going to do anyway and it turned out

2901
01:36:08,790 --> 01:36:07,840
that you know his daughter became a

2902
01:36:11,590 --> 01:36:08,800
buddhist

2903
01:36:13,430 --> 01:36:11,600
and he was not happy about that um and

2904
01:36:15,750 --> 01:36:13,440
he thought in retrospect and perhaps he

2905
01:36:17,669 --> 01:36:15,760
made a mistake by by leaving it so

2906
01:36:19,030 --> 01:36:17,679
open-ended again i don't have the answer

2907
01:36:20,390 --> 01:36:19,040
to not telling you what to do when it

2908
01:36:22,870 --> 01:36:20,400
comes to that but

2909
01:36:29,350 --> 01:36:22,880
his conclusion was i if i had to do it

2910
01:36:34,149 --> 01:36:31,109
i would have indoctrinated her into

2911
01:36:39,910 --> 01:36:37,270
i would have indoctrinated her

2912
01:36:41,430 --> 01:36:39,920
into non-belief

2913
01:36:43,990 --> 01:36:41,440
think about those words think about what

2914
01:36:46,310 --> 01:36:44,000
they mean let them echo around your head

2915
01:36:48,950 --> 01:36:46,320
let them catch on every tool you have in

2916
01:36:51,189 --> 01:36:48,960
your mental arsenal for detecting

2917
01:36:54,070 --> 01:36:51,199
fallacy contradiction i would

2918
01:36:55,910 --> 01:36:54,080
indoctrinate her into non-belief

2919
01:36:57,590 --> 01:36:55,920
now

2920
01:36:59,350 --> 01:36:57,600
if skeptics really believe what they

2921
01:37:01,030 --> 01:36:59,360
actually are according to the original

2922
01:37:03,189 --> 01:37:01,040
definition i read at the beginning from

2923
01:37:05,030 --> 01:37:03,199
oxford skeptics in the pub

2924
01:37:07,430 --> 01:37:05,040
and then they said i would indoctrinate

2925
01:37:09,189 --> 01:37:07,440
someone into non-belief

2926
01:37:11,189 --> 01:37:09,199
that completely nullifies everything

2927
01:37:12,790 --> 01:37:11,199
within that description

2928
01:37:14,310 --> 01:37:12,800
they're essentially saying that the

2929
01:37:19,109 --> 01:37:14,320
skeptic

2930
01:37:21,109 --> 01:37:19,119
reason apportioning all evidence

2931
01:37:23,109 --> 01:37:21,119
studying the pitfalls of human reason

2932
01:37:25,430 --> 01:37:23,119
and and deception

2933
01:37:27,990 --> 01:37:25,440
all those things have to be offline in

2934
01:37:29,669 --> 01:37:28,000
order in order to preserve the skeptic

2935
01:37:31,350 --> 01:37:29,679
world view

2936
01:37:32,790 --> 01:37:31,360
in order to keep being a skeptic you

2937
01:37:40,950 --> 01:37:32,800
have to stop

2938
01:37:44,149 --> 01:37:43,109
this is this is this really is something

2939
01:37:45,590 --> 01:37:44,159
you should always bring up whatever

2940
01:37:47,189 --> 01:37:45,600
whatever skeptic says like something

2941
01:37:49,590 --> 01:37:47,199
like to you

2942
01:37:52,790 --> 01:37:49,600
skepticism is not a belief system any

2943
01:37:53,990 --> 01:37:52,800
more than the off switch is a tv channel

2944
01:37:56,870 --> 01:37:54,000
they say things like that all the time

2945
01:37:58,229 --> 01:37:56,880
they cannot pretend that anymore

2946
01:38:00,550 --> 01:37:58,239
if they can indoctrinate people into

2947
01:38:02,070 --> 01:38:00,560
non-belief and you know novella uttered

2948
01:38:04,149 --> 01:38:02,080
those words and he just carried on and

2949
01:38:06,070 --> 01:38:04,159
he didn't even understand it when this

2950
01:38:07,350 --> 01:38:06,080
issue went straight over his head he's

2951
01:38:09,270 --> 01:38:07,360
just carried on

2952
01:38:10,709 --> 01:38:09,280
i mean it's this it's uh forgot the

2953
01:38:12,070 --> 01:38:10,719
number of the show it's one of the early

2954
01:38:15,669 --> 01:38:12,080
episodes of the skeptic's guide to the

2955
01:38:17,030 --> 01:38:15,679
universe his radio show

2956
01:38:22,709 --> 01:38:17,040
come on

2957
01:38:22,719 --> 01:38:26,149
one second ladies and gents

2958
01:38:31,590 --> 01:38:28,390
oh come on

2959
01:38:33,990 --> 01:38:31,600
that's it

2960
01:38:35,510 --> 01:38:34,000
right the conveniently told confession

2961
01:38:37,990 --> 01:38:35,520
story

2962
01:38:39,109 --> 01:38:38,000
right ctcs conveniently told confession

2963
01:38:40,470 --> 01:38:39,119
story this is something you've got to be

2964
01:38:42,470 --> 01:38:40,480
aware of you've got to be wary of this

2965
01:38:45,109 --> 01:38:42,480
sort of thing

2966
01:38:47,189 --> 01:38:45,119
this here is a creature known as patty

2967
01:38:49,109 --> 01:38:47,199
now in 1967 this is the this creature

2968
01:38:50,310 --> 01:38:49,119
was captured by uh the patterson gimlin

2969
01:38:53,830 --> 01:38:50,320
film

2970
01:38:55,270 --> 01:38:53,840
made people have

2971
01:38:57,109 --> 01:38:55,280
gone backwards and forwards over whether

2972
01:39:00,070 --> 01:38:57,119
it was real or fake is it true is it

2973
01:39:02,070 --> 01:39:00,080
false well uh chris packham you may have

2974
01:39:04,229 --> 01:39:02,080
heard of him he's a bbc

2975
01:39:06,229 --> 01:39:04,239
nature presenter now he is david

2976
01:39:07,350 --> 01:39:06,239
attenborough's natural success not coxy

2977
01:39:09,350 --> 01:39:07,360
boy

2978
01:39:11,189 --> 01:39:09,360
it's it's a biologist a nature it's a

2979
01:39:12,709 --> 01:39:11,199
nationalist anyway he got he took a

2980
01:39:15,590 --> 01:39:12,719
phone call from bob gimlin one of the

2981
01:39:17,750 --> 01:39:15,600
one of the photographers the guy who

2982
01:39:19,350 --> 01:39:17,760
who made this and he said bob bob gimlin

2983
01:39:21,350 --> 01:39:19,360
confessed that it was fake

2984
01:39:22,870 --> 01:39:21,360
he said that's my wife dressed in a

2985
01:39:24,070 --> 01:39:22,880
furry gorilla suit

2986
01:39:25,830 --> 01:39:24,080
and we got her to walk in front of the

2987
01:39:27,189 --> 01:39:25,840
camera we made the video we got a fake

2988
01:39:29,109 --> 01:39:27,199
bigfoot video

2989
01:39:30,310 --> 01:39:29,119
now the response from the skeptics has

2990
01:39:33,510 --> 01:39:30,320
been

2991
01:39:35,270 --> 01:39:33,520
we have a confession case closed

2992
01:39:37,669 --> 01:39:35,280
someone's confessed that's the end of it

2993
01:39:39,270 --> 01:39:37,679
you stop writing you you put that pen

2994
01:39:40,550 --> 01:39:39,280
down we're not gonna look we're not

2995
01:39:42,470 --> 01:39:40,560
going to look at this again we're not

2996
01:39:44,390 --> 01:39:42,480
going to study it again it's all over

2997
01:39:45,830 --> 01:39:44,400
it's not real we know because somebody

2998
01:39:47,830 --> 01:39:45,840
confessed

2999
01:39:50,310 --> 01:39:47,840
but a confession is a claim too and

3000
01:39:52,390 --> 01:39:50,320
confessions can be falsified

3001
01:39:54,629 --> 01:39:52,400
dr paul vella who sadly has passed away

3002
01:39:56,629 --> 01:39:54,639
he's a he was a cryptozoologist

3003
01:39:58,390 --> 01:39:56,639
he went to this location where this took

3004
01:39:59,830 --> 01:39:58,400
place it's been very precisely located

3005
01:40:01,270 --> 01:39:59,840
within the within the woods of

3006
01:40:03,750 --> 01:40:01,280
california

3007
01:40:06,070 --> 01:40:03,760
and um he did a few measurements using

3008
01:40:07,910 --> 01:40:06,080
the computer generated imagery and

3009
01:40:09,430 --> 01:40:07,920
analysis and he works out that figure

3010
01:40:10,790 --> 01:40:09,440
you see there is six foot seven feet

3011
01:40:13,030 --> 01:40:10,800
tall

3012
01:40:15,109 --> 01:40:13,040
is bob clement's wife really that's all

3013
01:40:16,629 --> 01:40:15,119
is she

3014
01:40:21,109 --> 01:40:16,639
then you better not winger if she burns

3015
01:40:24,149 --> 01:40:22,950
uh bob gimlin could well have falsified

3016
01:40:25,910 --> 01:40:24,159
that confession he could have faked it

3017
01:40:26,950 --> 01:40:25,920
but the skeptics don't look into they

3018
01:40:28,790 --> 01:40:26,960
don't even

3019
01:40:29,750 --> 01:40:28,800
if we say make a claim if we make a

3020
01:40:31,030 --> 01:40:29,760
claim

3021
01:40:32,950 --> 01:40:31,040
oh it's got to be proportioned to

3022
01:40:34,310 --> 01:40:32,960
evidence if we make a claim but it's a

3023
01:40:35,669 --> 01:40:34,320
confession that we fake something no

3024
01:40:37,430 --> 01:40:35,679
that's it we accept it without looking

3025
01:40:38,790 --> 01:40:37,440
at it again case closed

3026
01:40:41,109 --> 01:40:38,800
another example

3027
01:40:42,790 --> 01:40:41,119
alex malarkey this is a book called the

3028
01:40:44,629 --> 01:40:42,800
boy who came back from heaven by kevin

3029
01:40:47,109 --> 01:40:44,639
and alex malarkey alex malachi was a

3030
01:40:49,030 --> 01:40:47,119
young boy injured very badly in a

3031
01:40:50,390 --> 01:40:49,040
in a car crash when he was six years old

3032
01:40:52,390 --> 01:40:50,400
spent the next couple of years in

3033
01:40:54,390 --> 01:40:52,400
hospital in a coma eventually he

3034
01:40:56,870 --> 01:40:54,400
recovered and he reported what we call

3035
01:40:58,310 --> 01:40:56,880
we would call a near-death experience

3036
01:40:59,910 --> 01:40:58,320
it was a book very similar to danny and

3037
01:41:01,350 --> 01:40:59,920
brinkley's um saved by the light i don't

3038
01:41:04,149 --> 01:41:01,360
know if you've ever read that it's a

3039
01:41:05,910 --> 01:41:04,159
very similar book anyway uh he the

3040
01:41:07,270 --> 01:41:05,920
skeptics always said maybe he made this

3041
01:41:09,350 --> 01:41:07,280
up anyway he made a confession on

3042
01:41:11,030 --> 01:41:09,360
facebook he's like he's about 18 now

3043
01:41:14,070 --> 01:41:11,040
he's he's a lot older

3044
01:41:15,590 --> 01:41:14,080
and um the skeptics again i heard about

3045
01:41:17,750 --> 01:41:15,600
this on skeptic's guide to the universe

3046
01:41:19,030 --> 01:41:17,760
steve novella he said well um alex

3047
01:41:20,709 --> 01:41:19,040
malaki's confessed that he made the

3048
01:41:22,550 --> 01:41:20,719
whole thing up that's it it's all over

3049
01:41:24,870 --> 01:41:22,560
case closed but

3050
01:41:26,310 --> 01:41:24,880
again is it real did he

3051
01:41:28,629 --> 01:41:26,320
is there a reason why someone would fake

3052
01:41:31,270 --> 01:41:28,639
a confession i think so because see his

3053
01:41:33,270 --> 01:41:31,280
parents split up his mother beth was was

3054
01:41:34,790 --> 01:41:33,280
angry with the husband and

3055
01:41:36,310 --> 01:41:34,800
there was some kind of lawsuit involving

3056
01:41:38,470 --> 01:41:36,320
the royalties of the book she had to sue

3057
01:41:39,990 --> 01:41:38,480
her own her own ex-husband and her own

3058
01:41:41,910 --> 01:41:40,000
son

3059
01:41:44,390 --> 01:41:41,920
also you know he he was became a

3060
01:41:46,470 --> 01:41:44,400
celebrity he's very sick boy he was just

3061
01:41:48,070 --> 01:41:46,480
learning to walk and talk again

3062
01:41:49,669 --> 01:41:48,080
and people were knocking on his door

3063
01:41:52,629 --> 01:41:49,679
every day of the week and he got fed up

3064
01:41:54,790 --> 01:41:52,639
with that so is it possible that he

3065
01:41:56,390 --> 01:41:54,800
made up that confession just to try just

3066
01:41:57,990 --> 01:41:56,400
he may have said to his dad can we just

3067
01:41:59,669 --> 01:41:58,000
roll this back and maybe we can live a

3068
01:42:01,270 --> 01:41:59,679
kind of normal life

3069
01:42:03,830 --> 01:42:01,280
almost exactly the same as these two

3070
01:42:05,510 --> 01:42:03,840
ladies this is kate and marguerita fox

3071
01:42:06,950 --> 01:42:05,520
in 1848

3072
01:42:09,030 --> 01:42:06,960
they claimed that there were they've

3073
01:42:10,870 --> 01:42:09,040
heard strange noises in their house

3074
01:42:11,990 --> 01:42:10,880
and they ended up doing a tour in the

3075
01:42:13,910 --> 01:42:12,000
country they became international

3076
01:42:15,590 --> 01:42:13,920
celebrities they're credited with

3077
01:42:16,550 --> 01:42:15,600
inventing spiritualism although it's not

3078
01:42:17,590 --> 01:42:16,560
true

3079
01:42:19,750 --> 01:42:17,600
but again

3080
01:42:21,189 --> 01:42:19,760
40 years later they confessed that they

3081
01:42:23,189 --> 01:42:21,199
made the whole thing up

3082
01:42:24,629 --> 01:42:23,199
but did they because they they were both

3083
01:42:26,310 --> 01:42:24,639
suffering terribly from the celebrity

3084
01:42:27,510 --> 01:42:26,320
lifestyle it's not what's cracked up to

3085
01:42:29,350 --> 01:42:27,520
be i don't think

3086
01:42:31,590 --> 01:42:29,360
they both had drink problems their

3087
01:42:33,030 --> 01:42:31,600
marriages were in bad shape

3088
01:42:34,470 --> 01:42:33,040
and they may have had they may have come

3089
01:42:36,470 --> 01:42:34,480
to the same conclusion

3090
01:42:37,430 --> 01:42:36,480
as alex malarkey

3091
01:42:39,590 --> 01:42:37,440
now this is the bit you've all been

3092
01:42:41,669 --> 01:42:39,600
waiting for

3093
01:42:44,629 --> 01:42:41,679
now this here is dr david clarke and

3094
01:42:46,229 --> 01:42:44,639
andy roberts who don't like me very much

3095
01:42:48,229 --> 01:42:46,239
they said they said in their column in

3096
01:42:50,470 --> 01:42:48,239
14 times that i was full of

3097
01:42:52,870 --> 01:42:50,480
guff

3098
01:42:54,310 --> 01:42:52,880
i take that as a compliment but um i've

3099
01:42:58,470 --> 01:42:54,320
actually met these guys i've spoke to

3100
01:43:02,310 --> 01:43:00,470
but um

3101
01:43:04,629 --> 01:43:02,320
they uh

3102
01:43:06,550 --> 01:43:04,639
the question is that

3103
01:43:08,149 --> 01:43:06,560
i've got to ask a question

3104
01:43:10,870 --> 01:43:08,159
are skeptics just skeptics because they

3105
01:43:13,910 --> 01:43:10,880
like being skeptics or are they put

3106
01:43:15,350 --> 01:43:13,920
are they put into this world to debunk

3107
01:43:16,470 --> 01:43:15,360
what we say because there's some kind of

3108
01:43:18,629 --> 01:43:16,480
cover-up

3109
01:43:20,709 --> 01:43:18,639
this this especially applies to the ufo

3110
01:43:23,590 --> 01:43:20,719
issue maybe to others as well which i'll

3111
01:43:24,870 --> 01:43:23,600
say at the very very end but um

3112
01:43:25,990 --> 01:43:24,880
you've got to ask them you've got to ask

3113
01:43:27,350 --> 01:43:26,000
some questions there's actually no

3114
01:43:29,350 --> 01:43:27,360
evidence that any of the individuals

3115
01:43:31,189 --> 01:43:29,360
i've talked about today

3116
01:43:32,310 --> 01:43:31,199
um have any connections to intelligence

3117
01:43:33,990 --> 01:43:32,320
services

3118
01:43:35,830 --> 01:43:34,000
or um

3119
01:43:37,109 --> 01:43:35,840
psychological warfare think tanks and

3120
01:43:39,510 --> 01:43:37,119
any of those sort of things with one

3121
01:43:41,030 --> 01:43:39,520
exception james randy with james randy

3122
01:43:42,790 --> 01:43:41,040
there is a reason to be suspicious of

3123
01:43:44,470 --> 01:43:42,800
his motives however i don't have time to

3124
01:43:46,790 --> 01:43:44,480
tell you about that this evening i go

3125
01:43:47,830 --> 01:43:46,800
into it in a longer version of this talk

3126
01:43:49,669 --> 01:43:47,840
but um

3127
01:43:52,709 --> 01:43:49,679
of all the a lot of ufologists and

3128
01:43:54,470 --> 01:43:52,719
people like this have been accused of

3129
01:43:55,669 --> 01:43:54,480
perhaps

3130
01:43:57,750 --> 01:43:55,679
putting out false information

3131
01:43:59,510 --> 01:43:57,760
deliberately for this for the sake of

3132
01:44:00,950 --> 01:43:59,520
the covering up the reality of

3133
01:44:02,790 --> 01:44:00,960
extraterrestrial life one of them is

3134
01:44:04,550 --> 01:44:02,800
actually a very old and very respected

3135
01:44:06,310 --> 01:44:04,560
ufologist indeed in this country jenny

3136
01:44:10,390 --> 01:44:06,320
randalls

3137
01:44:11,990 --> 01:44:10,400
someone that she is compromised and

3138
01:44:14,149 --> 01:44:12,000
she's working for some kind of authority

3139
01:44:16,470 --> 01:44:14,159
that wants to cover up ufos now

3140
01:44:17,270 --> 01:44:16,480
um the individual actually who made this

3141
01:44:19,830 --> 01:44:17,280
um

3142
01:44:21,270 --> 01:44:19,840
suggestion is actually someone who tends

3143
01:44:23,270 --> 01:44:21,280
he he tends to make these kinds of

3144
01:44:24,790 --> 01:44:23,280
suggestions about almost everybody

3145
01:44:26,790 --> 01:44:24,800
so i usually take them with a grain of

3146
01:44:28,950 --> 01:44:26,800
salt and i i'm certainly not accusing

3147
01:44:30,950 --> 01:44:28,960
jenny randles of doing anything wrong in

3148
01:44:32,470 --> 01:44:30,960
this in this situation there's no hard

3149
01:44:34,550 --> 01:44:32,480
evidence however there's no doubt that

3150
01:44:36,149 --> 01:44:34,560
in the late 90s she took

3151
01:44:37,350 --> 01:44:36,159
she took a different turn she changed

3152
01:44:39,350 --> 01:44:37,360
her mind and there may be completely

3153
01:44:41,109 --> 01:44:39,360
innocent reasons for this

3154
01:44:43,350 --> 01:44:41,119
but um this is a book she wrote this

3155
01:44:46,629 --> 01:44:43,360
this was a book she published in 1984

3156
01:44:49,030 --> 01:44:46,639
sky crash a cosmic conspiracy co-war

3157
01:44:51,350 --> 01:44:49,040
co-authors as you can see

3158
01:44:53,270 --> 01:44:51,360
brenda butler and dot straight

3159
01:44:55,590 --> 01:44:53,280
who today stand by their story about the

3160
01:44:57,350 --> 01:44:55,600
renducam forest incident

3161
01:45:00,709 --> 01:44:57,360
come forward in time

3162
01:45:03,350 --> 01:45:00,719
to 2000 i think it's 2009.

3163
01:45:05,350 --> 01:45:03,360
ufos that never were

3164
01:45:06,950 --> 01:45:05,360
this is a book all about cases that have

3165
01:45:08,870 --> 01:45:06,960
been sold and found out not to be real

3166
01:45:10,950 --> 01:45:08,880
ufos and it's like she's written an

3167
01:45:12,390 --> 01:45:10,960
entire book about that i mean it takes a

3168
01:45:13,590 --> 01:45:12,400
lot of effort to write a book i know

3169
01:45:15,189 --> 01:45:13,600
because you can see here i've written

3170
01:45:16,550 --> 01:45:15,199
three of them here

3171
01:45:18,550 --> 01:45:16,560
but um

3172
01:45:21,109 --> 01:45:18,560
it's it seems like a big deal to talk

3173
01:45:22,709 --> 01:45:21,119
about to to write an entire book about

3174
01:45:23,910 --> 01:45:22,719
solved cases it's like

3175
01:45:25,750 --> 01:45:23,920
it's like sort of walking forward while

3176
01:45:27,270 --> 01:45:25,760
looking over your shoulder you know

3177
01:45:28,790 --> 01:45:27,280
i thought well why did jenny why did she

3178
01:45:30,390 --> 01:45:28,800
do this i mean i actually met jenny

3179
01:45:31,910 --> 01:45:30,400
reynolds a couple years ago i didn't get

3180
01:45:34,310 --> 01:45:31,920
the chance to ask her look at the

3181
01:45:35,910 --> 01:45:34,320
co-authors

3182
01:45:37,189 --> 01:45:35,920
i don't know if you can see that guess

3183
01:45:39,350 --> 01:45:37,199
who they are

3184
01:45:41,030 --> 01:45:39,360
andy roberts dr david clarke the two big

3185
01:45:42,830 --> 01:45:41,040
skeptics

3186
01:45:45,270 --> 01:45:42,840
people who said i was full of

3187
01:45:46,790 --> 01:45:45,280
guff skip that

3188
01:45:49,030 --> 01:45:46,800
and that

3189
01:45:50,870 --> 01:45:49,040
now this is helen duncan

3190
01:45:54,070 --> 01:45:50,880
now she i've done an entire talk on this

3191
01:45:56,310 --> 01:45:54,080
lady she was supposedly the last witch

3192
01:45:58,790 --> 01:45:56,320
and she was prosecuted in the old bailly

3193
01:46:00,070 --> 01:45:58,800
under the witchcraft trial now if if

3194
01:46:02,950 --> 01:46:00,080
mediums are

3195
01:46:05,189 --> 01:46:02,960
is in under the witchcraft act of 1735

3196
01:46:07,669 --> 01:46:05,199
this is 1941 this happened

3197
01:46:10,070 --> 01:46:07,679
no sorry 1944 and the question has to

3198
01:46:11,669 --> 01:46:10,080
remain like

3199
01:46:12,870 --> 01:46:11,679
they thought that she was getting secret

3200
01:46:15,109 --> 01:46:12,880
information

3201
01:46:16,870 --> 01:46:15,119
from spirits of the dead

3202
01:46:17,830 --> 01:46:16,880
and that possibly the german spies were

3203
01:46:19,590 --> 01:46:17,840
watching her this was in the middle of

3204
01:46:21,430 --> 01:46:19,600
world war ii

3205
01:46:23,350 --> 01:46:21,440
and so she was basically put away in

3206
01:46:27,109 --> 01:46:23,360
prison so that she couldn't

3207
01:46:28,629 --> 01:46:27,119
do her mediumship the question is though

3208
01:46:30,390 --> 01:46:28,639
the question you've got to ask yourself

3209
01:46:31,910 --> 01:46:30,400
is if it's not real why did they do that

3210
01:46:33,750 --> 01:46:31,920
do they all just believe in the sort of

3211
01:46:35,430 --> 01:46:33,760
thing or do they know something deep

3212
01:46:36,950 --> 01:46:35,440
down that we don't

3213
01:46:37,830 --> 01:46:36,960
about psychic powers and things like

3214
01:46:39,350 --> 01:46:37,840
that

3215
01:46:40,870 --> 01:46:39,360
and i've done an entire presentation on

3216
01:46:45,510 --> 01:46:40,880
this

3217
01:46:47,030 --> 01:46:45,520
after you died now after you're dead

3218
01:46:48,390 --> 01:46:47,040
have any of you seen something called

3219
01:46:50,629 --> 01:46:48,400
the discovery

3220
01:46:52,070 --> 01:46:50,639
it's a film it's got robert redford in

3221
01:46:53,590 --> 01:46:52,080
it

3222
01:46:55,430 --> 01:46:53,600
anyone seen that

3223
01:46:57,350 --> 01:46:55,440
you've seen that yeah it's it's worth

3224
01:46:59,750 --> 01:46:57,360
it's very interesting isn't it yeah

3225
01:47:03,350 --> 01:46:59,760
because it's on netflix you can it's i

3226
01:47:04,790 --> 01:47:03,360
think it's spread somewhere else now um

3227
01:47:06,870 --> 01:47:04,800
it's it's an it's it's kind of an

3228
01:47:09,750 --> 01:47:06,880
example of kind of what like the books

3229
01:47:11,990 --> 01:47:09,760
i've written about are what would happen

3230
01:47:13,430 --> 01:47:12,000
if we discovered the truth about ufos in

3231
01:47:14,550 --> 01:47:13,440
other words there was a lot of people

3232
01:47:16,149 --> 01:47:14,560
believe it anyway but what if the

3233
01:47:17,350 --> 01:47:16,159
cover-up ended and there was never any

3234
01:47:18,629 --> 01:47:17,360
doubt

3235
01:47:20,310 --> 01:47:18,639
what is the same thing with the

3236
01:47:21,990 --> 01:47:20,320
afterlife

3237
01:47:23,990 --> 01:47:22,000
what effect would that have on society

3238
01:47:25,590 --> 01:47:24,000
in the film the discovery

3239
01:47:27,590 --> 01:47:25,600
explores that in very interesting detail

3240
01:47:29,270 --> 01:47:27,600
but what's more helen duncan was going

3241
01:47:30,629 --> 01:47:29,280
to perform in court

3242
01:47:32,229 --> 01:47:30,639
she wanted to prove herself innocent by

3243
01:47:33,910 --> 01:47:32,239
performing her seance in court and they

3244
01:47:35,030 --> 01:47:33,920
wouldn't let her do it

3245
01:47:36,950 --> 01:47:35,040
even though it could it could have

3246
01:47:38,950 --> 01:47:36,960
proved her right

3247
01:47:40,709 --> 01:47:38,960
if you want to know more about me

3248
01:47:42,470 --> 01:47:40,719
there are still three copies of my books

3249
01:47:44,709 --> 01:47:42,480
there you see the roswell rising a novel

3250
01:47:45,669 --> 01:47:44,719
of disclosure and it's two sequels

3251
01:47:47,030 --> 01:47:45,679
and this is a book like if you're

3252
01:47:48,550 --> 01:47:47,040
interested in ufos and you know there's

3253
01:47:50,629 --> 01:47:48,560
a cover-up just imagine what would

3254
01:47:52,629 --> 01:47:50,639
happen if that cover-up ended and i

3255
01:47:53,830 --> 01:47:52,639
managed i imagined that

3256
01:47:55,430 --> 01:47:53,840
and it came and i had a thought

3257
01:47:57,189 --> 01:47:55,440
experiment which led to a scenario a

3258
01:47:58,629 --> 01:47:57,199
story i'm a writer of fiction i've

3259
01:47:59,910 --> 01:47:58,639
written five novels and lots of short

3260
01:48:01,910 --> 01:47:59,920
stories

3261
01:48:03,430 --> 01:48:01,920
and so i wrote three books about it and

3262
01:48:05,350 --> 01:48:03,440
there are there are three copies there

3263
01:48:08,070 --> 01:48:05,360
are three copies there ten pounds for

3264
01:48:10,070 --> 01:48:08,080
one book fifteen for two twenty five for

3265
01:48:11,910 --> 01:48:10,080
three

3266
01:48:13,590 --> 01:48:11,920
there we go and um if you wanna know

3267
01:48:15,109 --> 01:48:13,600
more about me

3268
01:48:17,430 --> 01:48:15,119
as steve said at the beginning i got a

3269
01:48:19,270 --> 01:48:17,440
website called hapan mo hospital

3270
01:48:20,470 --> 01:48:19,280
porter's against the new world order if

3271
01:48:22,390 --> 01:48:20,480
you go to that website there's lot

3272
01:48:26,550 --> 01:48:22,400
there's actually

3273
01:48:27,910 --> 01:48:26,560
now a youtube channel my own radio shows

3274
01:48:29,830 --> 01:48:27,920
a forum it's a very multimedia

3275
01:48:32,149 --> 01:48:29,840
experience so you expect to be there a

3276
01:48:33,350 --> 01:48:32,159
long time i know that rihanna you've had

3277
01:48:34,709 --> 01:48:33,360
a look at a lot of things there haven't

3278
01:48:37,109 --> 01:48:34,719
you yeah and i know some of the rest you

3279
01:48:38,310 --> 01:48:37,119
have as well so um

3280
01:48:39,910 --> 01:48:38,320
you know if you if you're i think if

3281
01:48:40,870 --> 01:48:39,920
you're interested in the subjects talked

3282
01:48:42,629 --> 01:48:40,880
about

3283
01:48:43,830 --> 01:48:42,639
at this these meetings and you come

3284
01:48:45,590 --> 01:48:43,840
regularly to these meetings and you've

3285
01:48:48,310 --> 01:48:45,600
enjoyed this meeting you'll enjoy these

3286
01:48:49,990 --> 01:48:48,320
books and you'll enjoy my website but

3287
01:48:51,430 --> 01:48:50,000
anyway i really appreciate you we've

3288
01:48:52,709 --> 01:48:51,440
gone on a little bit late and i

3289
01:48:55,010 --> 01:48:52,719
appreciate you hanging on for me thank

3290
01:49:01,400 --> 01:48:55,020
you very much

3291
01:49:07,990 --> 01:49:02,709
[Applause]

3292
01:49:11,030 --> 01:49:10,310
have we got time

3293
01:49:14,010 --> 01:49:11,040
if

3294
01:49:26,229 --> 01:49:14,020
steve

3295
01:49:33,270 --> 01:49:29,109
are indirectly skeptics because when we

3296
01:49:35,350 --> 01:49:33,280
go to investigate the ufo sighting

3297
01:49:37,910 --> 01:49:35,360
the first thing we'll do is try to find

3298
01:49:40,709 --> 01:49:37,920
the rational explanation

3299
01:49:43,589 --> 01:49:40,719
and then we'll try to find

3300
01:49:46,149 --> 01:49:43,599
is this person looking for information

3301
01:49:49,270 --> 01:49:46,159
are they are they uh not quite 100

3302
01:49:50,470 --> 01:49:49,280
mentally are they on drugs

3303
01:49:52,709 --> 01:49:50,480
and then you're trying to find the

3304
01:49:56,229 --> 01:49:52,719
russians

3305
01:50:00,950 --> 01:49:59,030
uh chinese lantern is it the iss going

3306
01:50:20,709 --> 01:50:00,960
over is it a satellite is it a

3307
01:50:24,790 --> 01:50:22,870
absolutely i apologize if i

3308
01:50:26,790 --> 01:50:24,800
misrepresented you in any way

3309
01:50:29,030 --> 01:50:26,800
but you see in a sense what you've just

3310
01:50:31,669 --> 01:50:29,040
illustrated is the difference between

3311
01:50:33,189 --> 01:50:31,679
uh the the actual definition which they

3312
01:50:34,950 --> 01:50:33,199
the skeptics give themselves which i

3313
01:50:37,189 --> 01:50:34,960
wholeheartedly agree with which is what

3314
01:50:38,470 --> 01:50:37,199
you talked about it's the skeptic who

3315
01:50:40,470 --> 01:50:38,480
looks at the photos i said at the

3316
01:50:41,589 --> 01:50:40,480
beginning and says what's this hey look

3317
01:50:43,109 --> 01:50:41,599
into it they might find it's just a

3318
01:50:44,950 --> 01:50:43,119
weather balloon as opposed to the

3319
01:50:47,030 --> 01:50:44,960
skeptic who says i'm not even gonna look

3320
01:50:49,109 --> 01:50:47,040
at it i know it's not real

3321
01:50:50,310 --> 01:50:49,119
so but the second one is the one who is

3322
01:50:53,189 --> 01:50:50,320
the most

3323
01:50:54,790 --> 01:50:53,199
most skeptical of all you see so that's

3324
01:50:56,709 --> 01:50:54,800
that's kind of what the point is of this

3325
01:50:58,709 --> 01:50:56,719
entire talk which is what is the

3326
01:51:00,070 --> 01:50:58,719
definition of being a skeptic and one of

3327
01:51:01,669 --> 01:51:00,080
the people who call themselves skeptics

3328
01:51:03,990 --> 01:51:01,679
are very often not skeptics in the way

3329
01:51:07,350 --> 01:51:04,000
you define yourself

3330
01:51:09,750 --> 01:51:07,360
anyone else hello is someone over there

3331
01:51:11,990 --> 01:51:09,760
did you have your hand up

3332
01:51:13,030 --> 01:51:12,000
anyone else got their hand up

3333
01:51:14,709 --> 01:51:13,040
sir

3334
01:51:17,270 --> 01:51:14,719
i don't really think that james randy

3335
01:51:19,189 --> 01:51:17,280
was a skeptic

3336
01:51:21,510 --> 01:51:19,199
i think uh there was something deep

3337
01:51:23,189 --> 01:51:21,520
belonging to what he was thinking

3338
01:51:26,629 --> 01:51:23,199
um i think he did believe and he was

3339
01:51:28,229 --> 01:51:26,639
just trying to find other people

3340
01:51:30,790 --> 01:51:28,239
in the same milk

3341
01:51:32,229 --> 01:51:30,800
it's if you if you um look at the longer

3342
01:51:34,229 --> 01:51:32,239
version is talk i'll go into it there's

3343
01:51:36,070 --> 01:51:34,239
some very suspicious elements of james

3344
01:51:39,030 --> 01:51:36,080
brown his connections to various

3345
01:51:40,390 --> 01:51:39,040
organizations such as darpa

3346
01:51:42,470 --> 01:51:40,400
and um

3347
01:51:44,390 --> 01:51:42,480
there's also the uh ironically the

3348
01:51:47,030 --> 01:51:44,400
mcdonald douglas corporation james

3349
01:51:48,790 --> 01:51:47,040
mcdonald's organized organization which

3350
01:51:50,070 --> 01:51:48,800
indicate that he knew more than he was

3351
01:51:51,510 --> 01:51:50,080
saying and he

3352
01:51:53,510 --> 01:51:51,520
appeared to be engaged on an active

3353
01:51:55,189 --> 01:51:53,520
campaign of suppression

3354
01:51:56,629 --> 01:51:55,199
so what could we call obviously we can't

3355
01:51:57,830 --> 01:51:56,639
ask him now unless he's gone somewhere

3356
01:51:59,990 --> 01:51:57,840
we can channel him i'll be a bit of a

3357
01:52:02,310 --> 01:52:00,000
surprise for him but um

3358
01:52:03,669 --> 01:52:02,320
i'm uh i'm convinced that guy there is

3359
01:52:05,830 --> 01:52:03,679
evidence that's something i think a lot

3360
01:52:07,750 --> 01:52:05,840
of scientists

3361
01:52:09,189 --> 01:52:07,760
don't say what they believe

3362
01:52:11,910 --> 01:52:09,199
because they

3363
01:52:13,910 --> 01:52:11,920
uh fear losing their jobs

3364
01:52:15,109 --> 01:52:13,920
carl sagan was one because i heard that

3365
01:52:17,830 --> 01:52:15,119
he actually did believe in

3366
01:52:19,669 --> 01:52:17,840
extraterrestrials but professionally

3367
01:52:20,870 --> 01:52:19,679
he kept away from him he changed his

3368
01:52:22,550 --> 01:52:20,880
tune very suddenly actually because in

3369
01:52:24,070 --> 01:52:22,560
the 60s he was in the new a stuff and

3370
01:52:25,430 --> 01:52:24,080
things like that he was like blackmore

3371
01:52:27,030 --> 01:52:25,440
and he changed his position very

3372
01:52:29,750 --> 01:52:27,040
suddenly and there's people have asked

3373
01:52:31,830 --> 01:52:29,760
questions about why that was bryce is

3374
01:52:33,750 --> 01:52:31,840
has actually portrayed this fictionally

3375
01:52:35,750 --> 01:52:33,760
in the dark skies tv series it's very

3376
01:52:37,270 --> 01:52:35,760
interesting yeah and it's true

3377
01:52:39,510 --> 01:52:37,280
scientists are people they're human

3378
01:52:41,350 --> 01:52:39,520
beings this idea they can just go around

3379
01:52:42,870 --> 01:52:41,360
drawing perfect circles everywhere and

3380
01:52:44,310 --> 01:52:42,880
they're never affected by anything other

3381
01:52:45,750 --> 01:52:44,320
than that you know their their

3382
01:52:47,669 --> 01:52:45,760
rationality their observations and

3383
01:52:49,589 --> 01:52:47,679
things like that is false we already

3384
01:52:51,589 --> 01:52:49,599
know that he can't if carl sagan's

3385
01:52:53,189 --> 01:52:51,599
sergeant was cheating

3386
01:52:54,870 --> 01:52:53,199
is he the only one

3387
01:52:56,629 --> 01:52:54,880
i mean a lot of them cheat a lot of he

3388
01:52:57,750 --> 01:52:56,639
was cheating to get positive results but

3389
01:52:59,510 --> 01:52:57,760
i'm sure there are many who will cheat

3390
01:53:01,990 --> 01:52:59,520
to get negative results but because they

3391
01:53:03,669 --> 01:53:02,000
got rent to pay like everyone else

3392
01:53:05,430 --> 01:53:03,679
they've got they have a life outside

3393
01:53:07,430 --> 01:53:05,440
science which is affected by what they

3394
01:53:09,750 --> 01:53:07,440
say with it within their scientific

3395
01:53:13,030 --> 01:53:09,760
research

3396
01:53:14,870 --> 01:53:13,040
anyone else

3397
01:53:17,750 --> 01:53:14,880
you know anything about please more

3398
01:53:19,510 --> 01:53:17,760
about who he's more peacemore

3399
01:53:21,270 --> 01:53:19,520
yeah it's a village in berkshire and

3400
01:53:23,270 --> 01:53:21,280
allegedly there was a deep underground

3401
01:53:25,430 --> 01:53:23,280
military base beneath it i've been

3402
01:53:28,149 --> 01:53:25,440
looking for evidence of that and

3403
01:53:30,070 --> 01:53:28,159
funnily enough there is a strange i saw

3404
01:53:32,149 --> 01:53:30,080
something on youtube where some

3405
01:53:34,310 --> 01:53:32,159
australians said he went to piedmont it

3406
01:53:38,310 --> 01:53:34,320
wasn't it was in australia and he

3407
01:53:41,669 --> 01:53:39,430
yeah that's

3408
01:53:43,270 --> 01:53:41,679
that's standalone yeah it's there's a

3409
01:53:46,390 --> 01:53:43,280
there was a base that definitely exists

3410
01:53:49,589 --> 01:53:46,400
in central australia called pine gap

3411
01:53:50,470 --> 01:53:49,599
and i've seen it's a very strange place

3412
01:53:52,790 --> 01:53:50,480
yeah

3413
01:53:54,709 --> 01:53:52,800
it's it's a very it's some people have

3414
01:53:55,669 --> 01:53:54,719
suggested that

3415
01:53:57,990 --> 01:53:55,679
there was something there was some kind

3416
01:53:59,350 --> 01:53:58,000
of distraction i i don't i it's probably

3417
01:54:00,790 --> 01:53:59,360
not actually but

3418
01:54:02,550 --> 01:54:00,800
there is something weird at the the

3419
01:54:03,750 --> 01:54:02,560
hardware laboratory site which indicates

3420
01:54:05,430 --> 01:54:03,760
is there is still some kind of

3421
01:54:06,950 --> 01:54:05,440
underground working there which would

3422
01:54:08,310 --> 01:54:06,960
tell me what the witnesses said about

3423
01:54:11,750 --> 01:54:08,320
being the entrance to this place air

3424
01:54:13,189 --> 01:54:11,760
force base tunnels to the air force base

3425
01:54:13,990 --> 01:54:13,199
where

3426
01:54:18,550 --> 01:54:14,000
so

3427
01:54:20,830 --> 01:54:18,560
barry king wrote about it barry king it

3428
01:54:22,390 --> 01:54:20,840
was the house you know

3429
01:54:23,669 --> 01:54:22,400
so

3430
01:54:24,950 --> 01:54:23,679
it's difficult there's very little

3431
01:54:26,310 --> 01:54:24,960
information on it

3432
01:54:28,229 --> 01:54:26,320
and there's no evidence at the village

3433
01:54:29,910 --> 01:54:28,239
itself i went to visit the village

3434
01:54:31,350 --> 01:54:29,920
and there's nothing there but it's just

3435
01:54:32,790 --> 01:54:31,360
normal village but

3436
01:54:36,490 --> 01:54:32,800
yes ma'am

3437
01:54:36,500 --> 01:54:47,189
[Music]

3438
01:54:51,750 --> 01:54:48,790
that is the obvious answer is reynolds

3439
01:54:53,510 --> 01:54:51,760
and forrest that is that is very that's

3440
01:54:55,990 --> 01:54:53,520
probably the best documented one of the

3441
01:54:57,589 --> 01:54:56,000
best documentary vocations in history

3442
01:54:59,750 --> 01:54:57,599
there's many others there's witnesses

3443
01:55:01,510 --> 01:54:59,760
there's several contacts and experiences

3444
01:55:02,629 --> 01:55:01,520
and people like that i'm convinced

3445
01:55:03,990 --> 01:55:02,639
they're telling the truth because

3446
01:55:05,510 --> 01:55:04,000
they're people i know and i've actually

3447
01:55:08,070 --> 01:55:05,520
witnessed some of the strange phenomena

3448
01:55:09,669 --> 01:55:08,080
that that affects them so yeah there's

3449
01:55:11,510 --> 01:55:09,679
so many i could i could i'm not i

3450
01:55:12,870 --> 01:55:11,520
couldn't pick one i don't think

3451
01:55:16,229 --> 01:55:12,880
but thanks for the question yeah good

3452
01:55:21,350 --> 01:55:18,870
what do you think of derek agora

3453
01:55:24,310 --> 01:55:21,360
have you ever been to one of his uh no i

3454
01:55:26,229 --> 01:55:24,320
have not i know that david ike actually

3455
01:55:28,149 --> 01:55:26,239
went to a sitting with him

3456
01:55:31,189 --> 01:55:28,159
and and so did his wife and found him

3457
01:55:33,430 --> 01:55:31,199
very interesting i i know he's been

3458
01:55:34,870 --> 01:55:33,440
he's been accused of faking he's faking

3459
01:55:36,310 --> 01:55:34,880
things he's been caught out sometimes

3460
01:55:38,070 --> 01:55:36,320
making stuff up

3461
01:55:39,589 --> 01:55:38,080
and of course when he when he got i

3462
01:55:40,629 --> 01:55:39,599
think getting his job with the media has

3463
01:55:41,830 --> 01:55:40,639
made him

3464
01:55:43,669 --> 01:55:41,840
possibly

3465
01:55:45,189 --> 01:55:43,679
die around a few curves for the sake of

3466
01:55:47,830 --> 01:55:45,199
the audience and i know there's a guy

3467
01:55:48,870 --> 01:55:47,840
called ross hemsworth i know who he used

3468
01:55:51,189 --> 01:55:48,880
to present something called ghost

3469
01:55:53,270 --> 01:55:51,199
detectives on channel 4. and he said

3470
01:55:55,030 --> 01:55:53,280
he's he's been trying to get in he often

3471
01:55:56,550 --> 01:55:55,040
finds it difficult to get back into

3472
01:55:58,070 --> 01:55:56,560
paranormal broadcasting because they say

3473
01:56:00,229 --> 01:55:58,080
things like that we're going to have to

3474
01:56:01,350 --> 01:56:00,239
deliver for the audience regardless of

3475
01:56:03,030 --> 01:56:01,360
what you find

3476
01:56:04,550 --> 01:56:03,040
meaning we have to fake stuff you can't

3477
01:56:05,910 --> 01:56:04,560
find real ghosts we have to put in fake

3478
01:56:08,470 --> 01:56:05,920
ghosts

3479
01:56:10,070 --> 01:56:08,480
um but derek acura may well have gone he

3480
01:56:11,669 --> 01:56:10,080
may have gone down that road where ross

3481
01:56:12,870 --> 01:56:11,679
didn't

3482
01:56:14,390 --> 01:56:12,880
so

3483
01:56:16,070 --> 01:56:14,400
you know what

3484
01:56:18,229 --> 01:56:16,080
yeah

3485
01:56:19,270 --> 01:56:18,239
i went to one of his shows um

3486
01:56:21,589 --> 01:56:19,280
probably

3487
01:56:23,350 --> 01:56:21,599
11 years ago he's passed away now too

3488
01:56:24,950 --> 01:56:23,360
yeah it's no longer my father passed

3489
01:56:27,669 --> 01:56:24,960
away

3490
01:56:29,750 --> 01:56:27,679
so i was in the grand theater in swansea

3491
01:56:30,550 --> 01:56:29,760
so i went there just went to see what

3492
01:56:32,149 --> 01:56:30,560
was

3493
01:56:33,430 --> 01:56:32,159
you know what what is showing take

3494
01:56:37,030 --> 01:56:33,440
really

3495
01:56:39,589 --> 01:56:37,040
and uh he was calling out these um

3496
01:56:40,629 --> 01:56:39,599
these references to people in his brain

3497
01:56:42,390 --> 01:56:40,639
people put their hand up this is

3498
01:56:43,350 --> 01:56:42,400
reference anyone there and as slow as

3499
01:56:46,390 --> 01:56:43,360
you went through the information the

3500
01:56:50,310 --> 01:56:48,310
so the end it was i looked i was my

3501
01:56:52,149 --> 01:56:50,320
managing work

3502
01:56:54,790 --> 01:56:52,159
and he was having information about his

3503
01:56:56,229 --> 01:56:54,800
uh his father

3504
01:56:57,830 --> 01:56:56,239
i don't kevin throwing it very

3505
01:56:59,189 --> 01:56:57,840
interesting i don't believe he's

3506
01:57:00,550 --> 01:56:59,199
completely fake and i don't believe he's

3507
01:57:02,149 --> 01:57:00,560
right now he's

3508
01:57:03,430 --> 01:57:02,159
i've done other people who've met him

3509
01:57:05,030 --> 01:57:03,440
and said you know

3510
01:57:08,950 --> 01:57:05,040
some great detail

3511
01:57:10,709 --> 01:57:08,960
only only his family would know

3512
01:57:12,550 --> 01:57:10,719
i had a chat with him at work about it

3513
01:57:14,149 --> 01:57:12,560
and he was uh

3514
01:57:15,109 --> 01:57:14,159
it's quite compelling

3515
01:57:16,550 --> 01:57:15,119
yeah

3516
01:57:18,149 --> 01:57:16,560
it's essentially a lot of a lot of

3517
01:57:19,350 --> 01:57:18,159
genuine mediums when they get famous

3518
01:57:20,790 --> 01:57:19,360
they will

3519
01:57:22,790 --> 01:57:20,800
they get pressured into faking stuff you

3520
01:57:24,550 --> 01:57:22,800
know i mean i met yvette fielding once

3521
01:57:26,709 --> 01:57:24,560
at the conference in

3522
01:57:27,990 --> 01:57:26,719
the rock on and she swears blind

3523
01:57:29,990 --> 01:57:28,000
everything on

3524
01:57:30,870 --> 01:57:30,000
everything i'm most wanted is real

3525
01:57:32,790 --> 01:57:30,880
but

3526
01:57:39,350 --> 01:57:32,800
you know i question that i do

3527
01:57:42,790 --> 01:57:41,030
i think it is do you think you're

3528
01:57:44,229 --> 01:57:42,800
talking about

3529
01:57:46,470 --> 01:57:44,239
a.i

3530
01:57:48,790 --> 01:57:46,480
was this the one with that guy whether

3531
01:57:51,350 --> 01:57:48,800
they find jesse marcel's diary yeah and

3532
01:57:53,510 --> 01:57:51,360
they talk about this thick and terrorist

3533
01:57:55,510 --> 01:57:53,520
that he was terminal truth by his face

3534
01:57:57,109 --> 01:57:55,520
but that's any i think it's called voice

3535
01:57:58,870 --> 01:57:57,119
analysis yeah i'm not sure exactly how

3536
01:58:00,629 --> 01:57:58,880
that is abused his voice and facial

3537
01:58:02,310 --> 01:58:00,639
facial expressions it's similar to a

3538
01:58:07,030 --> 01:58:02,320
polygraph yeah i'm not sure exactly how

3539
01:58:09,750 --> 01:58:08,470
it is a very interesting and i'm not

3540
01:58:12,390 --> 01:58:09,760
sure exactly how it works but it's like

3541
01:58:14,550 --> 01:58:12,400
a polygraph it won't it won't clear

3542
01:58:15,430 --> 01:58:14,560
their name unfortunately um because i

3543
01:58:18,470 --> 01:58:15,440
know there's been people who've

3544
01:58:20,470 --> 01:58:18,480
subjected to multiple polygraph tests um

3545
01:58:22,229 --> 01:58:20,480
larry warren for example bob lazar

3546
01:58:23,990 --> 01:58:22,239
travis walton and people still accuse

3547
01:58:24,709 --> 01:58:24,000
them of making things up

3548
01:58:27,189 --> 01:58:24,719
so

3549
01:58:28,950 --> 01:58:27,199
whatever happened i mean

3550
01:58:30,709 --> 01:58:28,960
it's it's slightly different method yeah

3551
01:58:32,470 --> 01:58:30,719
i don't know how accurate it is does

3552
01:58:34,149 --> 01:58:32,480
some yeah hello

3553
01:58:36,229 --> 01:58:34,159
this hasn't got a lot to do with what

3554
01:58:38,390 --> 01:58:36,239
you said tonight you mentioned you

3555
01:58:39,510 --> 01:58:38,400
regain a little longer yeah

3556
01:58:42,310 --> 01:58:39,520
and

3557
01:58:44,310 --> 01:58:42,320
back in 1998 they had them down the

3558
01:58:46,149 --> 01:58:44,320
vetch in swansea

3559
01:58:47,830 --> 01:58:46,159
it was the last home game of the season

3560
01:58:50,310 --> 01:58:47,840
it was a bottom division they were

3561
01:58:53,030 --> 01:58:50,320
playing doncaster and doncaster had

3562
01:58:55,109 --> 01:58:53,040
already been relegated to the conference

3563
01:58:56,709 --> 01:58:55,119
so they had girl in the swans dress you

3564
01:58:59,750 --> 01:58:56,719
know before the game

3565
01:59:01,430 --> 01:58:59,760
to give them some positivity or whatever

3566
01:59:05,189 --> 01:59:01,440
it was the worst millionaire dr i've

3567
01:59:09,109 --> 01:59:07,510
do you know he claims he can he claims

3568
01:59:10,709 --> 01:59:09,119
he can do that he claims he can change

3569
01:59:12,870 --> 01:59:10,719
the course of football you know what

3570
01:59:15,030 --> 01:59:12,880
like at the halftime he went into the

3571
01:59:17,109 --> 01:59:15,040
set stood on a center spot

3572
01:59:19,910 --> 01:59:17,119
and bent the spoon and on and off frank

3573
01:59:21,830 --> 01:59:19,920
was singing at them

3574
01:59:23,270 --> 01:59:21,840
i don't eat he would i pray i think that

3575
01:59:25,430 --> 01:59:23,280
guy will say anything to keep people

3576
01:59:27,189 --> 01:59:25,440
talking about him he's saying like he

3577
01:59:29,030 --> 01:59:27,199
said that in the in the european cup

3578
01:59:30,390 --> 01:59:29,040
finals he was he could he could say i

3579
01:59:31,830 --> 01:59:30,400
made the ball go this way and i made the

3580
01:59:33,270 --> 01:59:31,840
ball go that way but he didn't do a very

3581
01:59:34,460 --> 01:59:33,280
good job in the final with a penalty

3582
01:59:35,589 --> 01:59:34,470
shootout did he

3583
01:59:37,350 --> 01:59:35,599
[Music]

3584
01:59:40,950 --> 01:59:37,360
he didn't do a very good job there

3585
01:59:42,709 --> 01:59:40,960
unless he's unless he's supporting italy

3586
01:59:44,149 --> 01:59:42,719
but he's recently said things like oh

3587
01:59:46,149 --> 01:59:44,159
aliens are going to land that's his

3588
01:59:49,510 --> 01:59:46,159
latest thing he's in the papers aliens

3589
01:59:51,350 --> 01:59:49,520
will be landing and i'm like oh yeah

3590
01:59:52,870 --> 01:59:51,360
you'll agree that

3591
01:59:54,950 --> 01:59:52,880
um

3592
01:59:57,950 --> 01:59:54,960
a lot of information

3593
01:59:59,990 --> 01:59:57,960
say in the military in the u.s is very

3594
02:00:02,629 --> 02:00:00,000
compartmentalized so that

3595
02:00:05,830 --> 02:00:02,639
very few people know about particular

3596
02:00:11,350 --> 02:00:05,840
projects yeah but

3597
02:00:13,910 --> 02:00:11,360
my viewpoint is in a similar way

3598
02:00:15,430 --> 02:00:13,920
ufologists and spiritualists are

3599
02:00:18,070 --> 02:00:15,440
compartmentalized

3600
02:00:20,790 --> 02:00:18,080
and we will only make progress on this

3601
02:00:23,189 --> 02:00:20,800
subject when they come together well it

3602
02:00:24,870 --> 02:00:23,199
does help i mean john keel was a was a

3603
02:00:26,470 --> 02:00:24,880
researcher who did understand that there

3604
02:00:29,510 --> 02:00:26,480
was you know paranormal phenomena and

3605
02:00:31,510 --> 02:00:29,520
ufologies for ufos were often associated

3606
02:00:32,790 --> 02:00:31,520
this doesn't mean that ufos are somehow

3607
02:00:34,790 --> 02:00:32,800
ephemeral and they don't produce

3608
02:00:35,510 --> 02:00:34,800
physical phenomenon because they do

3609
02:00:37,189 --> 02:00:35,520
but

3610
02:00:40,070 --> 02:00:37,199
there was a connection between the two

3611
02:00:42,550 --> 02:00:40,080
and i i do think that barkin michael

3612
02:00:43,910 --> 02:00:42,560
barkin is right about the cultic milieu

3613
02:00:45,270 --> 02:00:43,920
if you if you tend to believe in one

3614
02:00:47,030 --> 02:00:45,280
thing you will often believe in another

3615
02:00:49,030 --> 02:00:47,040
i'm not the only ufologist who's also

3616
02:00:50,950 --> 02:00:49,040
interested in spiritualism for example

3617
02:00:53,030 --> 02:00:50,960
there are there is a massive overlap

3618
02:00:55,109 --> 02:00:53,040
between the two not exclusive not

3619
02:00:56,870 --> 02:00:55,119
exclusive but the two they are kept

3620
02:00:58,470 --> 02:00:56,880
apart

3621
02:00:59,750 --> 02:00:58,480
and

3622
02:01:01,189 --> 02:00:59,760
it may be

3623
02:01:03,189 --> 02:01:01,199
that

3624
02:01:04,870 --> 02:01:03,199
ufologists

3625
02:01:06,870 --> 02:01:04,880
of skeptics

3626
02:01:10,229 --> 02:01:06,880
too skeptical

3627
02:01:12,229 --> 02:01:10,239
of spiritualists who believe that

3628
02:01:14,310 --> 02:01:12,239
channeled information

3629
02:01:16,229 --> 02:01:14,320
is true information but that will only

3630
02:01:18,629 --> 02:01:16,239
come out in time

3631
02:01:20,629 --> 02:01:18,639
that that they are talking the truth in

3632
02:01:23,589 --> 02:01:20,639
terms of what's happening and all the

3633
02:01:25,830 --> 02:01:23,599
subject it really its consciousness is

3634
02:01:28,790 --> 02:01:25,840
is where we are on it i was having a

3635
02:01:31,910 --> 02:01:28,800
conversation earlier today

3636
02:01:32,790 --> 02:01:31,920
no i haven't heard yet that because

3637
02:01:34,229 --> 02:01:32,800
i mean

3638
02:01:35,350 --> 02:01:34,239
it's really strange because earlier

3639
02:01:37,270 --> 02:01:35,360
today i was having a conversation with

3640
02:01:38,870 --> 02:01:37,280
with some people and it was it was a

3641
02:01:41,030 --> 02:01:38,880
private conversation i won't go into

3642
02:01:43,189 --> 02:01:41,040
details but we were talking about

3643
02:01:44,229 --> 02:01:43,199
something very similar about a case

3644
02:01:46,149 --> 02:01:44,239
which is

3645
02:01:48,390 --> 02:01:46,159
usually thought of as euphological but

3646
02:01:49,270 --> 02:01:48,400
may well have nothing more to do with

3647
02:01:50,390 --> 02:01:49,280
us

3648
02:01:51,910 --> 02:01:50,400
demonology

3649
02:01:53,350 --> 02:01:51,920
and things like that

3650
02:01:55,109 --> 02:01:53,360
and that we would

3651
02:01:56,550 --> 02:01:55,119
it's possible that we we've generically

3652
02:01:59,510 --> 02:01:56,560
categorized some of these cases in the

3653
02:02:00,950 --> 02:01:59,520
wrong fire or they may be more than one

3654
02:02:02,070 --> 02:02:00,960
phenomenon we don't know we don't

3655
02:02:03,510 --> 02:02:02,080
necessarily

3656
02:02:05,910 --> 02:02:03,520
understand that possibly because we

3657
02:02:08,070 --> 02:02:05,920
don't we do tend to be more too

3658
02:02:10,310 --> 02:02:08,080
specialized maybe which is why i tend to

3659
02:02:12,229 --> 02:02:10,320
be more ecumenical funny enough you know

3660
02:02:15,189 --> 02:02:12,239
um i was chastised i was a member of the

3661
02:02:17,589 --> 02:02:15,199
911 truth group and um i was chastised

3662
02:02:19,189 --> 02:02:17,599
once by the chairman because i did a

3663
02:02:20,310 --> 02:02:19,199
talk and i mentioned ufos and he says

3664
02:02:22,229 --> 02:02:20,320
don't mention that we don't want to be

3665
02:02:24,149 --> 02:02:22,239
associated with that funny enough bryce

3666
02:02:26,149 --> 02:02:24,159
zabel said exactly the same thing in the

3667
02:02:28,149 --> 02:02:26,159
opposite direction he said don't talk

3668
02:02:30,149 --> 02:02:28,159
about 911 when you're talking about ufos

3669
02:02:33,270 --> 02:02:30,159
because it for the very same reason it

3670
02:02:35,109 --> 02:02:33,280
discredits us does anyone else want to

3671
02:02:37,270 --> 02:02:35,119
have a little bit of something else

3672
02:02:38,390 --> 02:02:37,280
any more questions ladies and gents

3673
02:02:39,109 --> 02:02:38,400
sir

3674
02:02:40,390 --> 02:02:39,119
but

3675
02:02:42,550 --> 02:02:40,400
it's been great

3676
02:02:43,350 --> 02:02:42,560
tonight

3677
02:02:44,629 --> 02:02:43,360
oh

3678
02:02:48,310 --> 02:02:44,639
you're very welcome

3679
02:02:50,629 --> 02:02:48,320
yeah it's if the the the details on my

3680
02:02:52,790 --> 02:02:50,639
website and it's all on there i'm at

3681
02:02:54,870 --> 02:02:52,800
porterhood on twitter and i've got some

3682
02:02:56,149 --> 02:02:54,880
books here if you're interested and um

3683
02:02:58,149 --> 02:02:56,159
there's all these other things that you

3684
02:03:03,830 --> 02:02:58,159
can you can pick up